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  1. #101
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    Goofy Goober GT4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
    Let's think this through. Would it have been a nice day if he flipped, but came loose from his bike?

    No, flipping your bike means you're going to have a very bad day whether you're attached to it or not.

    The thing we should learn from your story isn't that clipless pedals are bad or dangerous, it's that you shouldn't run your bike into things.
    good point. Especially the first line. I didn't look at it that way.

  2. #102
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallen View Post
    No one is saying clipless pedals magically give you continuous power, that's just silly.
    The OP is saying it (or something similar), which is why I'm trying to correct his misperception.

    The claim that "clipless means less fatigue" is a new one to me, and (again) I haven't seen an iota of evidence to back it up.


    Is there a graph showing power output on platforms?
    I haven't seen any. I'd also guess that almost everyone who views such tiny amounts as significant will use foot retention regardless.


    I find when I am on platforms that I never fully unload the upstroke pedal, and my feet start hurting a lot quicker.
    The thing is, I don't think you can make a proper evaluation using subjective methods. AFAIK the pedal-based power meters will all use clipless. IIRC one power meter (Quarq?) offers left-right, but that's an estimate rather than a direct measurement.

  3. #103
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump55 View Post
    No, the one with platforms is 1 lb heavier. That must be the reason it is slower.

    It surely couldn't be because of less quadricep fatigue due to more hamstring usage to maintain the same wattage.
    Depends. I would personally do a test and just replace your clipless with platforms one day and see if you are the same speed.

    FWIW, when I am riding hard instead of just riding around with the wife I would rather be wearing clipless pedals, especially up and down hills.
    "Even people opposed to religion need calm minds and compassion to make their work more effective."

  4. #104
    Descends like a rock pallen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    The claim that "clipless means less fatigue" is a new one to me, and (again) I haven't seen an iota of evidence to back it up...
    I doubt it has been studied because its probably generally accepted as fact that foot retention is a valuable benefit to cyclists trying to go fast for long periods of time. Just like the study linked earlier, the studies aren't trying to evaluate clipless vs platforms, they are looking at how to optimize pedal strokes with the assumption that any pro or serious cyclist will be using clipless pedals because the benefits over platforms are obvious. Like I said before, when I started using clipless pedals and shoes, I had new muscles in my butt and back of the legs start getting sore. They were being engaged differently. Using different muscle groups or being able to focus on using different muscle groups over a long ride will definitely help you go longer.

  5. #105
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiLigand View Post
    Let's break this down, engineering style.

    Unless you've got one of those funny (and pretty damn cool, imo) elliptical crank sets, your crank and drive train in general are radially symmetrical. So really, they don't care which 'direction' you're pulling/pushing, just that energy is going from you to it. (In reality, since it's a polar [radial] system, you are only really pushing in one direction the whole time, you're just using different muscle groups to accomplish it. So, if consider using the exact same amount of energy on platform vs clipless, you just get to spread that energy payment over different muscle groups, which helps to keep you from exhausting yourself too quickly.

    Also, it should help you maintain a more consistent power output. Like I said, the crank doesn't really care which "direction" you push, but you're not using the same radial system as it. So when using platform, you can only push down, which only lets you use one quarter(ish) of the crank rotation per arm, or about half the rotation in total. Pulling/pushing in other directions uses - again, assuming the same amount of energy - the same energy spread more consistently over the crank.

    As for clipping/unclipping, I still have the occasional trouble unclipping really quickly, but it's a necessary evil IMO.
    You have some assumptions in there that might be unsupported. You can't assume that spreading the work among different muscles groups improves efficiency, because those muscles may differ in their mechanical and chemical efficiency . So you might end up underusing your most efficient muscles, and overusing some inefficient ones. You also can't assume that steady power output is more efficient than pulsatile output concentrated on the downstroke. In fact pro cyclists exert much more effort on the downstroke than the upstroke and it seems to work for them.

  6. #106
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouskid55 View Post
    Hasn't anyone ever done one legged drills? Try riding with one leg. The superiority of clipless pedals should be obvious.
    I don't think anybody would disagree. Clipless pedals offer a huge advantage to one-legged riders.

  7. #107
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM View Post
    I would personally do a test and just replace your clipless with platforms one day and see if you are the same speed.
    You can make the change in pedals "one day" but you have to do the test over a longer period of time. If you switch from clipless to flat pedals you need to relearn how to pedal in circles, because when you're clipped to the pedal you can get a bit lazy and let the cleat drag your foot around. Tha's why your foot floats off the pedal at the top of the stroke when you first go back to flat pedals - you've forgotten how to move your foot in a circle.

  8. #108
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    This is an interesting little read:

    http://bikeandbody.blogspot.com/2011...rm-pedals.html
    Are you a registered member? Why not? Click here to register. It's free and only takes 27 seconds! Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

  9. #109
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallen View Post
    I do notice a bit of negative values, especially on the right foot. Its small, but I wouldn't call that insignificant.
    That negative torque on the upstroke, where the back leg create a drag on the pedals, and the red and green lines on the bottom graph drop below zero, shows that not only are they not pulling the pedal up with their back leg at that point, they are actually semi-resting that leg, pulling up at less force than needed to lift the foot off the rising pedal, and instead letting the powerful front leg downstroke not only propel the bike, but assist in lifting the back leg.

    Last edited by cooker; 07-03-13 at 04:10 PM.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Mountain Mitch's Avatar
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    The only way you're getting me out of my clipless road pedals is if you pry them off my cold dead feet!

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    How about a flying 200 meters on a track bike?
    I think the most graphic demonstration of how effective clipless pedals are was Lance Armstrong pulling out of his and whacking his nuts on the top tube after the infamous handbag incident on the TdF.

    How anyone can argue about the effectiveness of clipless pedals after that, I don't know.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I think the most graphic demonstration of how effective clipless pedals are was Lance Armstrong pulling out of his and whacking his nut on the top tube after the infamous handbag incident on the TdF.
    .
    FTFY.
    Sorry, I really couldn't resist.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dudemanppl View Post
    FTFY.
    Sorry, I really couldn't resist.
    I knew someone couldn't.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  14. #114
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I think the most graphic demonstration of how effective clipless pedals are was Lance Armstrong pulling out of his and whacking his nuts on the top tube after the infamous handbag incident on the TdF.

    How anyone can argue about the effectiveness of clipless pedals after that, I don't know.
    Handbag? Is that what they call musettes in OZ?

    Man, he wasn't wearing a helmet or a cup. Safety first, Lance!
    1980ish Free Spirit Sunbird fixed * 1996 Mongoose IBOC Zero-G * 1997 KHS Comp * 1990-ish Scapin * Lemond Buenos Aires Triple

  15. #115
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
    Handbag? Is that what they call musettes in OZ?

    Man, he wasn't wearing a helmet or a cup. Safety first, Lance!
    Does anyone ride with a cup?

  16. #116
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    Does anyone ride with a cup?
    I used to, but then I switched to mixtes.

    I mean, the horror!!!

    1980ish Free Spirit Sunbird fixed * 1996 Mongoose IBOC Zero-G * 1997 KHS Comp * 1990-ish Scapin * Lemond Buenos Aires Triple

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    Does anyone ride with a cup?
    Only if they're expecting low balls.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  18. #118
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsharr View Post
    This is an interesting little read:

    http://bikeandbody.blogspot.com/2011...rm-pedals.html
    Yes, it was. Showed the weaknesses of the studies. I stand by my assertion that pulling up adds significantly to power to the drivetrain in certain situations.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  19. #119
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    What I know is that it's startling to wander down to campus and hear all the kids on their platform pedals sounding Zippppp Zippppp Zipppppp Zippppppp... in individual strokes instead of the steady whirrrr of roadies.

  20. #120
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Yes, it was. Showed the weaknesses of the studies. I stand by my assertion that pulling up adds significantly to power to the drivetrain in certain situations.
    At the very least, I know (from PM data) that I can rest my quads and concentrate on other parts of the stroke without a dropoff in power in and around my FTP. I really couldn't give two ****s if some anonymous guy on the internet thinks differently.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  21. #121
    Climbing: Ropes or Wheels PiLigand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooker View Post
    You have some assumptions in there that might be unsupported. You can't assume that spreading the work among different muscles groups improves efficiency, because those muscles may differ in their mechanical and chemical efficiency . So you might end up underusing your most efficient muscles, and overusing some inefficient ones. You also can't assume that steady power output is more efficient than pulsatile output concentrated on the downstroke. In fact pro cyclists exert much more effort on the downstroke than the upstroke and it seems to work for them.
    My assumptions are not unsupported. I say that in confidence, not in aggression. I may be newer to bikes, but I am incredibly well based in thermodynamics.
    One muscle's proficiency dosen't have anything to do with the others. Joule for joule, the power comes from direction, not timing. If you can spread say 40 watts over two strokes, even if it's 30-10, then you can optimize (minimize) the wear on said strokes.

    Yeah, everyone has a better push down than anything else (thus the elliptical cranksets), but that's no reason not to use everything else too. if you push down with 40 watts but you can also pull with 15, why not take the 55? (totally making these number up, as I'm sure you noticed) it's [almost] the same energy transfer, but more power.

  22. #122
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PiLigand View Post
    My assumptions are not unsupported. I say that in confidence, not in aggression. I may be newer to bikes, but I am incredibly well based in thermodynamics.
    One muscle's proficiency dosen't have anything to do with the others. Joule for joule, the power comes from direction, not timing. If you can spread say 40 watts over two strokes, even if it's 30-10, then you can optimize (minimize) the wear on said strokes.

    Yeah, everyone has a better push down than anything else (thus the elliptical cranksets), but that's no reason not to use everything else too. if you push down with 40 watts but you can also pull with 15, why not take the 55? (totally making these number up, as I'm sure you noticed) it's [almost] the same energy transfer, but more power.
    It may partly depend on how much O2 you need to generate those watts, as O2 delivery is the rate limiting step. If the 40 watt downstroke consumes 40 unlts of O2 and the 15 watt upstroke consumes 18 units of O2 (again using hypothetical numbers), then you'd be better off pushing down a little harder, and pulling up a little more weakly
    Last edited by cooker; 07-03-13 at 09:27 PM.

  23. #123
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    I may be newer to bikes, but I am incredibly well based in thermodynamics.
    Oh, goodie.

    Would you care to calculate how much force is required to lift your leg? Or do you imagine that lifting 10% of your body's mass requires no energy whatsoever?


    Quote Originally Posted by PiLigand View Post
    Yeah, everyone has a better push down than anything else (thus the elliptical cranksets), but that's no reason not to use everything else too.
    The reason to develop elliptical cranksets is to mitigate the "dead spot." Which, by the way, is the point in the rotation when the cyclist is *COUGH* not putting any power to the pedals. (It's the 12:00 / 6:00 position.)


    if you push down with 40 watts but you can also pull with 15, why not take the 55?
    1) Because that energy/force is actually going into lifting your leg.
    2) Because your leg was not designed to exert significant forces when lifting.
    3) Because, presumably due to the above factors, pulling up actually reduces your total efficiency.

  24. #124
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Yes, it was. Showed the weaknesses of the studies. I stand by my assertion that pulling up adds significantly to power to the drivetrain in certain situations.
    You might need a little more than nit-picking a few studies. (Especially as you don't seem to cite any conflicting data.)

    Another source, by the way, is Andy Pruitt, one of the top cycling sports docs, who heads up the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, does fittings for numerous pro teams:

    "Because of advancing technology and the development of new ways to observe and measure biomechanics in action, we know a great deal about the pedal stroke. And one of the things we know is that even the best pedaling stylists don’t produce power when they pull up on the backstroke. The most they can hope for is to unweight the rear foot so it adds less drag to the power output of the foot that is pushing downward. But it’s not possible even to get the back foot out of the way entirely."
    http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/...yclists_137556

    With all due respect, I'm gonna go with the top sports doc, who has been working regularly with top pros in numerous disciplines (including road, mountain & track) and has been using pedal-based power meters for over a decade.

  25. #125
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Mitch View Post
    The only way you're getting me out of my clipless road pedals is if you pry them off my cold dead feet!
    Don't jinx yourself! Those things are known to kill!
    Quote Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
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