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  1. #26
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalava View Post
    Why? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in knowing because whatever data you get from it would mean what? Unless there are tandem races I am not ware of.
    1) there are tandem races. Next year's A goal will be Master Nationals in the tandem time trial and tandem road race. Additionally there are other tandem races. We've done Everest Challenge in the tandem devision, the Co-Motion Classic stage Race (racing a Crit on a tandem is fun), and the Florida State Time Trial championship, as well as some local tt's.

    2) training on the tandem allows me to ride and train more without taking time away from family. Without a power meter, though, it leaves a hole in my data.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  2. #27
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    I just want to be clear on this. Someone who has the mechanical skills to swap a BB is going to find it a challenge to swap a pair of pedals and a pod? Seriously?

    And who says the advantages are "earth-shattering," or that you need to buy one the first day it's out? Aside from Garmin, that is.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Square Wheels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalava View Post
    Why? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in knowing because whatever data you get from it would mean what? Unless there are tandem races I am not ware of.
    This way he'll have evidence he's pedaling harder than his wife.

  4. #29
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    Nothing new, but another first ride: http://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/g...st-ride-review

  5. #30
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Square Wheels View Post
    This way he'll have evidence he's pedaling harder than his wife.
    You say that jokingly. However, that's also part of it. I'm convinced, based in part on her power data from her single bike that she pushes harder riding her single, and has some difficulty pacing, and measuring efforts on the tandem. My bet is the power meter on the tandem will show her she can push harder than she thinks.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  6. #31
    Seņor Member kimconyc's Avatar
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    This is somewhat OT, but after using a PowerTap SL+ for the past two years, I cannot see how the Vector offers any serious advantages over a PowerTap. And I'm not shilling BTW. However, here are some reasons why I still think a PT is a much better value than something like the Vector:

    1) Time-tested device

    2) MUCH cheaper, especially with the new price drop.

    3) Compatibility. Let me expand on this:
    3a. All one has to do is pull off the freehub body (with little force might I add). So switching between a Shimano/SRAM and Campagnolo bike (for example) takes less than a minute, especially if the freehub bodies have cassettes already on them.
    3b. You can easily switch out different freehub bodies for bikes with different gearing. For example, one bike might have an 11-23 cassette and another might have an 12-28 cassette. All you have to do is have a spare freehub body/cassette.
    3c. No tools needed. Are you seriously going to take a pedal wrench to swap out pedals between bikes? Swapping wheels is such an instinctual habit in cycling, anyone who has had a rear flat can do it. Removing pedals or cranks is only for those mechanically inclined to do so.

    4) Maintenance. It's pretty easy changing out batteries on a PT. All you need is the plastic wrench that comes with the hub and screw off the top, sort of like opening a bottle.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimconyc View Post
    This is somewhat OT, but after using a PowerTap SL+ for the past two years, I cannot see how the Vector offers any serious advantages over a PowerTap. And I'm not shilling BTW. However, here are some reasons why I still think a PT is a much better value than something like the Vector:

    1) Time-tested device

    2) MUCH cheaper, especially with the new price drop.

    3) Compatibility. Let me expand on this:
    3a. All one has to do is pull off the freehub body (with little force might I add). So switching between a Shimano/SRAM and Campagnolo bike (for example) takes less than a minute, especially if the freehub bodies have cassettes already on them.
    3b. You can easily switch out different freehub bodies for bikes with different gearing. For example, one bike might have an 11-23 cassette and another might have an 12-28 cassette. All you have to do is have a spare freehub body/cassette.
    3c. No tools needed. Are you seriously going to take a pedal wrench to swap out pedals between bikes? Swapping wheels is such an instinctual habit in cycling, anyone who has had a rear flat can do it. Removing pedals or cranks is only for those mechanically inclined to do so.

    4) Maintenance. It's pretty easy changing out batteries on a PT. All you need is the plastic wrench that comes with the hub and screw off the top, sort of like opening a bottle.
    You know some people have different wheels for different occasions, right?

  8. #33
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I just want to be clear on this. Someone who has the mechanical skills to swap a BB is going to find it a challenge to swap a pair of pedals and a pod? Seriously?
    I never said that. I said it's going to take more time to swap the pedals than swap cranksets. And as you see in the video link, you don't have to change the bb to swap a Quarq out.

    And setting up the Vector is a bit more involved than just swapping pedals:

    From the Cycling News link:

    "Installing the Garmin Vector is little more complicated than setting up a standard set of road pedals. In essence, it’s just a matter of screwing them in and tightening them down to a torque value of 34-40Nm. That said, there are a few key differences.

    One is the addition of the pedal pods, which house the battery and ANT+ transmitter hardware. They should be oriented so that each one is hanging straight down when the corresponding pedal is in the forward position. You must also ensure that there’s a slight gap between the outer face of the crank arm and the pedal pod’s backing plate. Included spacers are added as needed, depending on how recessed the pedal sockets are on the crank arms
    ."


    And if you read the DC Rainmaker review, the power was inaccurate until he figured out he didn't have them tight enough.

    None of this is to suggest its unduely difficult to install Vectors. It is to suggest that's there no swappability advantage to Vectors, over the swap process with a Quarq shown in the video,
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  9. #34
    Seņor Member kimconyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    You know some people have different wheels for different occasions, right?
    Some people have different bikes for different occasions as well.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimconyc View Post
    Some people have different bikes for different occasions as well.
    I have both.

    But go read the part of your post I put in bold. You really can't understand being able to choose different wheels as a 'serious advantage'?

  11. #36
    Arrogant Roadie Punk save10's Avatar
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    i'm just gonna say it now....IBTL

  12. #37
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimconyc View Post
    1) Time-tested device
    Sure. But that will change with time.


    2) MUCH cheaper, especially with the new price drop.
    Sure. Thanks to Stages. Price isn't much different than other high-end PM's.


    3) Compatibility.
    C'mon, man. Vector is compatible with any ANT+ head, any wheel, any crank. The only thing it's not compatible with is other cleat systems.


    Are you seriously going to take a pedal wrench to swap out pedals between bikes?
    Are you planning to switch bikes in a location where you won't possibly have access to a pedal wrench?


    I'm sorry, but all this just sounds like the usual FUD when something new comes out. It'll work just fine once the firmware has a few iterations. And if it doesn't interest you, don't buy one.

  13. #38
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    Its great to see Vector out, I'm amazed they made it work though they clearly have. Id love to know the effect of sliding the cleat from one side of the shoe to the other since vector works by measuring the bending in the spindle - which is a cantilever. 5mm sideways adjustment in the cleat position represents about a 10% change in cantilever length and a change in bending greater than the claimed accuracy of the measurement for the same applied force - Interesting.

    Anyway, Im sticking with my 2 powertaps. Since I build my own wheels none of the often stated drawbacks apply. The powertap measures total power getting to the road, accurately, consistantly and reliably. And its all safely wrapped up inside a solid hub shell protected inside the frame with no dangly bits and a nice clean look. At this time I think powertap has it nailed provided you build your own wheels.

    Its interesting to see all the alternatives though.

  14. #39
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    I never said that. I said it's going to take more time to swap the pedals than swap cranksets. And as you see in the video link, you don't have to change the bb to swap a Quarq out.

    And setting up the Vector is a bit more involved than just swapping pedals:

    From the Cycling News link:

    "Installing the Garmin Vector is little more complicated than setting up a standard set of road pedals. In essence, it’s just a matter of screwing them in and tightening them down to a torque value of 34-40Nm. That said, there are a few key differences.

    One is the addition of the pedal pods, which house the battery and ANT+ transmitter hardware. They should be oriented so that each one is hanging straight down when the corresponding pedal is in the forward position. You must also ensure that there’s a slight gap between the outer face of the crank arm and the pedal pod’s backing plate. Included spacers are added as needed, depending on how recessed the pedal sockets are on the crank arms
    ."


    And if you read the DC Rainmaker review, the power was inaccurate until he figured out he didn't have them tight enough.

    None of this is to suggest its unduely difficult to install Vectors. It is to suggest that's there no swappability advantage to Vectors, over the swap process with a Quarq shown in the video,
    That right there will make swapping an issue when compared to a Quarq...

    I do not torque my pedals to that level and they can be a PITA to remove, I can only imagine what it would be like if they were torqued down to 34nm+...

    I'm with Merlin on this one, swapping out a Quarq is a pretty darn easy process and takes absolutely no setup. You swap the cranks, start up the Garmin, spin the pedals and you have power...

    I was excited about Vector when they first talked about them, but when Speedplay left the equation they fell off my radar. Now that I have a Quarq I do not see the benefit what so ever. The one I am keeping my eye on is Stages. The price makes it intriguing if it is in fact reliable...
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  15. #40
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    FWIW: Personally, I don't find changing out pedals or cranks to be that taxing. I fairly frequently remove and replace pedals on two bikes when packing for traveling. There's a little bit of technique to it, which is to always arrange the wrench and cranks so you are pulling away from the BB for either installation or removal. At home, I torque my pedals to spec (Look says 40 Nm) but usually go by feel on the road. I wouldn't consider having to put the pods and couple of washers on the pedal spindles to be a significant complication.

  16. #41
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    ^ my point is that it's not difficult to swap pedals, or cranks, so no major advantage to Vector, over proven crank based systems.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  17. #42
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    Good for Garmin! I was certain they would never get this product good enough to release. They proved me wrong.
    I don't even use the offensive term "Fred." -- Sheldon "All Cyclists Are My Friends" Brown (1944-2008)

  18. #43
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    At $1700 its WAY Overpriced. I agree with Merlin, swapping a Quarq is seriously a 5minute job. I've swapped mine between my road bikes a few times and its SUPER PAINLESS!

    I really don't like how this locks you into the LOOK based pedal system. It's not like locking you into a crankset is a big freaking deal, especially with the newer Quarqs that will automatically recalibrate to different chainrings.

    Swapping pedals is a 5minute job too but for some reason people think that swapping a crank is rocket science(lol).

    $1700 is overpriced for beta testing.

    independent pedal power? Thats super useless. I've been training with power for about 8 months now and have zero interest in looking at power from each leg, and studies have shown that if you try to balance it out you just decrease the power from your more powerful leg(as if it all matters anyways).

    The difference is 2% which is pretty much p[ointless to talk about in terms of power reading.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  19. #44
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Also how in the hell do they expect you to torque the pedals down to 25n*m? I'm not aware of any widely available torque wrench that works as an actual wrench without a socket(you wont get a socket on the pedals).
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    I have both.

    But go read the part of your post I put in bold. You really can't understand being able to choose different wheels as a 'serious advantage'?
    For the price of one vector you could equip two wheelsets with powertaps. This would also provide a spare powertap should one fail.

    My guess is the Vector will prove to be less reliable than hub or crank based meters because:
    1. The pedal based system is more complicated with twice as many potential points of failure. Two batteries, 16 strain gauges etc.
    2. Pedals are more likely to be struck in a fall or during a pedal strike while cornering.

    SRMs and Powertaps have proven to be very reliable with many old wired versions lasting 5-10 yrs with no maintenance other than battery changes. I

  21. #46
    Senior Member Gallo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    You say that jokingly. However, that's also part of it. I'm convinced, based in part on her power data from her single bike that she pushes harder riding her single, and has some difficulty pacing, and measuring efforts on the tandem. My bet is the power meter on the tandem will show her she can push harder than she thinks.
    Dude are you going to spend 3200 bucks to make your wife pedal harder? If you pull that off you are officially my hero.

    I love the idea of the Vectors but not the price. Not having a pedal option seems a bit crazy, I like look pedals but love my zeros. I am not ready to pull the trigger on power meter as of now. Just not in the budget and I remain unconvinced it will provide me with data to make me faster just simply confirm I am slow. I will stick with my cadence and heart monitor for now. I don't know what price point I am interested but even the 700 stages seems a bit much for me. I love the technology and read up on it. It seems to provide those that use it with tangible data. I do not race however so I feel it is a bit above my needs.
    "Are you finished and satisfied with the thread up to this point? If so, if you don't mind, I'm inclined to close it now, the quality posts have dwindled - it's circling the bowl now." BillyD

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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Dude are you going to spend 3200 bucks to make your wife pedal harder? If you pull that off you are officially my hero.
    Maybe you could do it with one set if you put the right pedal on the captain's crank and the left pedal on the stoker's crank... stoker would be tasked with maintaining a predetermined optimum L/R split on the head unit.
    I don't even use the offensive term "Fred." -- Sheldon "All Cyclists Are My Friends" Brown (1944-2008)

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    For the price of one vector you could equip two wheelsets with powertaps. This would also provide a spare powertap should one fail.

    My guess is the Vector will prove to be less reliable than hub or crank based meters because:
    1. The pedal based system is more complicated with twice as many potential points of failure. Two batteries, 16 strain gauges etc.
    2. Pedals are more likely to be struck in a fall or during a pedal strike while cornering.

    SRMs and Powertaps have proven to be very reliable with many old wired versions lasting 5-10 yrs with no maintenance other than battery changes. I
    That's all fine and well. I even a agree with some of it. I never said there aren't good reasons to own a PT, and I do own one.

    But again, that doesn't change that being able to choose a wheelset independently of power is a serious advantage of every other power meter over a PT. It's why I also own a Quarq and keep in my race bike.
    Last edited by canam73; 08-09-13 at 03:43 PM.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    But again, that doesn't change that being able to choose a wheelset independently of power is a serious advantage of every other power meter over a PT. It's why I also own a Quarq and keep in my race bike.
    Well, that can be an advantage but, depending on the kind of racing you do, I'm not sure it's as serious an advantage as many people think. I know guys who race on both road and TT bikes and the position differences are great enough that the net benefit from a different crank length on the TT bike outweighs the net benefit between a wheel cover and a disc. So they run shorter cranks and use a wheel cover. That's a specific example but it's not that uncommon.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    Well, that can be an advantage but, depending on the kind of racing you do, I'm not sure it's as serious an advantage as many people think. I know guys who race on both road and TT bikes and the position differences are great enough that the net benefit from a different crank length on the TT bike outweighs the net benefit between a wheel cover and a disc. So they run shorter cranks and use a wheel cover. That's a specific example but it's not that uncommon.
    BS.

    Everybody who buys a power meter is going to consider the prospect of switching it between bikes and switching wheels on their bikes. Switching wheels may not be the concern that wins out for everyone, there are absolutely other advantages and disadvantages to consider. But even people who have good reason to go with a PT are going to think about it. That's why many end up with two PTs.

    Take your own example. Those guys might do well with a pedal based system instead of PTs. With PTs they may want 3 or more. A race wheel for each bike and at least one training wheel.

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