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Old 08-07-13, 02:34 PM   #1
dalava
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PSA: Garmnin Vector out

Pretty good first look here
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Old 08-07-13, 02:38 PM   #2
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Woah.. $1700
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Old 08-07-13, 04:58 PM   #3
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I think one group that will benefit is the campy guys who don't want to spend the money on SRM. That group typically does training with powertap on alloy clinchers and race on tubulars without power. This gives them an option to use a better wheel for training, and to have power data for races.
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Old 08-07-13, 08:38 PM   #4
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I'd say the powertap price drops were well timed!

I wouldn't buy the Vector at this price, but I can't wait to see some solid reviews start rolling in.
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Old 08-07-13, 11:14 PM   #5
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While I think it's pretty cool, its just so ridiculous looking... don't see any reason to go with it over a crank-based power meter.
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Old 08-07-13, 11:27 PM   #6
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I read no online sales
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Old 08-08-13, 01:04 AM   #7
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I read no online sales
For now.
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Old 08-08-13, 05:26 AM   #8
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I'm glad Vector is finally available, although I must admit it's not something I'd go for. At least not now.

If the pedal platform hadn't switched away from Speedplay, I'd be considering them a lot more. $1,700, but you can measure power output from both legs? What does the cheapest Quarq cost that can do this? As I understand it, the cheapest Quarqs available don't have this capability. I'm just trying to compare it price wise with similar power meters and features.

A mountain bike pedal would be awesome as well. Although I can't say I MTB much, or would even want power for it. Just glad it's finally available. Now we can read up on it and await improvements.
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Old 08-08-13, 06:47 AM   #9
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Quarq doesn't measure power seperately for each leg. It breaks the pedal stroke into 2 halves, and measures each half. So, left sided power is going to include the power stroke on the left side, and the upstroke on the right side, and vice versa. Thus left side power is going to be affected by how much you contribute by unweighting your right leg.

I've had a Quarq with 2 sided power for a year now. I've yet to see any value in the power balance data. I've talked to Chris Carmichael and other CTS coaches about it, and they don't put any value in the power balance data.

In fact, the Garmin people pretty much admit as this point, they're not sure of the value of the data, with some limited exceptions like measuing recovery from an injury.
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Old 08-08-13, 07:16 AM   #10
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Preliminary review, (better than most full reviews): http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/08/h...in-vector.html
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Old 08-08-13, 10:40 AM   #11
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They look nice, expensive, but I see a lot of benefits to this style.
Tax-free weekend in Massachusetts, maybe I should pick some up.
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Old 08-08-13, 11:10 AM   #12
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Preliminary review, (better than most full reviews): http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/08/h...in-vector.html
ummm...that's the link in the OP....
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Old 08-08-13, 11:23 AM   #13
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They look nice, expensive, but I see a lot of benefits to this style.
Tax-free weekend in Massachusetts, maybe I should pick some up.
I'm going to buy a pair, because I have a specific need that there's not a good answer for: power meter on a tandem.

Without a specific reason to need a power based system, I think you should think hard about being a beta tester.

Every power meter system from SRM to Ergamo, to Powertap to Quarq, etc. has had problems out of the gate. And the only pedal based power meter that's come to market before this is an absolute piece of crap (Look Polar Power pedals).

Garmin almost as much as admits this is a beta version of the product, at least with respect to the software.

Thus, there is a distinct advantage to buying a mature power meter.


And what is the supposed advantage to the Garmin system? Weight? It does not appear to be lighter than a Quarq or SRM with Speedplay or the lightest Look Keo's.

Interchangeability? It's as easy to move an SRM or Quarq from from bike to bike as it is to swap pedals, and install the transmitter. I've moved a Quarq from road bike to tt bike between stages in a stage race in less than 3 minutes.

Better data? As I indicated above, nobody including Garmin really knows of much particular value for the 2 sided data you can get from these.

Cost? No cheaper than Quarq, more expensive than Powertap, and Stages.

Equipment choice? Vector does allow you your choice of wheels and crank. However Quarq, and SRM allow you choice of wheels as well, and there are a number of crank options for SRM and Quarq. And SRM and Quarq don't look you into look style pedals.

Perhaps in 2 years, when the kinks have ben ironed, the price has fallen, and there's more data regarding how to use the unique data from a pedal based system, the Vector will make sense.

For now, unless you're putting them on a tandem, I'd go with SRM, price no object, Quarq if the budget doesn't allow SRM, and Powertap, if cost is the primary driver. (or used wired SRM).
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Old 08-08-13, 11:40 AM   #14
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merlin,

Wow, thanks for the thoughtful and thorough response. I'd be thrilled to be a beta tester only if they offered me a set for free.
I honestly don't have a need for a power system at this point. I don't / won't race and I'm not training for any particular events. At some point in the future I will look into one, but only to help get stronger at riding.

Again thanks for the explanation / help.
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Old 08-08-13, 11:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
And what is the supposed advantage to the Garmin system? Weight?
• True left-right power
• Better pedal stroke analysis
• Compatible with pretty much any crank and wheel
• Easy to install
• Easy to move
• ANT+

It's expensive, it's not a hands-down win, and yes it will take time for the software to really mature. I can see it being very useful for a lot of riders, though.
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Old 08-08-13, 12:01 PM   #16
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$1,700 is still a lot cheaper than SRM cranks and in line with Quarq. Also, these pedals seem easier to set up than a lot of other options.

As a general comment I personally don't need a powermeter. In fact, I'm not sure I understand why most people would be interested in tracking quantified power. Personally, I exercise enough that I know when I've put in a good day's effort. Power might be worthwhile to someone learning how to calibrate exercise intensity, but after 25 years of swimming/cycling/running, I'm pretty in touch with how hard I'm working at any given moment.
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Old 08-08-13, 12:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
• True left-right power
To what end? Nobody's using the extrapolated left/right data now. Garmin doesn't even suggest a use for it, other than measuring recovery from an injury, and only suggest it may be useful in the future with more data. When i discussed this with coaches, they've said, that with exception of circumstances such as a physical diasbility (where it would be obvious without a power meter) left/right balance discrepencies typically are less than the margin of error of the power meter. In other words it's noise.
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• Better pedal stroke analysis
See above, perhaps with more data, someone will come up with meaningful ways to use that in training, but for now, its going to be at most gee whiz. A power meter is a tool for training, and its not going to change your training.


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• Compatible with pretty much any crank and wheel
Quarq and SRM are compatible with any wheel, and you have a wide variety in choices of cranks. And you get to choose your own pedal type.

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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
• Easy to install
• Easy to move
This is the fallacy, if your read DC Rainmaker's writeup, the initial installation and setup on the Vector is more involved than with a Quarq. And moving a Quarq or SRM from bike to bike is actually easier than swapping out 2 pedals and 2 transmitters.

I've moved a Quarq from bike to bike, and dealt with taking Look Power Pedal off and on. Admittedly, the Vectors install in one fewer steps than the Looks, but they're still no easier than a Quarq or an SRM.

I'll admit for reasons that are no longer valid, some people are intimidated to mess with the BB of their bike, but will swap pedals. It's this irrational fear that is the main appeal to Vector.

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• ANT+
So is everything but Look.


I own 2 quarqs, and a powertap, I did have the Look power pedals, and am going to buy the Vector for a particular purpose, so I'm not anti Vector, but nobody I know with much experience with Power Meters is very high on Vector, particularly at $1700 a pop.
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Old 08-08-13, 12:32 PM   #18
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I was waiting on these but is there any reason for someone new to power to not get the Stages unit?
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Old 08-08-13, 12:42 PM   #19
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I was waiting on these but is there any reason for someone new to power to not get the Stages unit?
Yes.
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Old 08-08-13, 12:51 PM   #20
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I was waiting on these but is there any reason for someone new to power to not get the Stages unit?
Read the 2 reviews by DC Rainmaker of Stages. The second review, after some retweaking of the product, gives some hope that Stages isn't junk and could be viable, although somewhat limited.

That said, I go back to being a beta tester of power meters can be a frustrating process. If you have a Stages budget, I'd be thinking Powertap, or used wired SRM, or wait a year.
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Old 08-08-13, 01:15 PM   #21
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To what end? Nobody's using the extrapolated left/right data now.
That's because it hasn't been available outside a lab until now.

The reason no one suggests using it right now is because it's unclear what it means or how to use it. With a bit of research (which is apparently either starting soon or already in the works), we'll have a much better idea.

And considering how much work people put into perfecting their pedal stroke, I don't see how it's a bad thing to see hard data on your pedal stroke.


Quote:
This is the fallacy....
Which apparently everyone except you believes.

I don't see what you're reading that is so onerous. Vector has one pod, not two; swapping a BB isn't rocket science, but it clearly involves a few more steps than swapping pedals.

As to moving the pedals: Spin for 5-7s at 80+ RPM, then do a normal pre-ride calibration (set the cranks at the 3:00-9:00 without putting weight on them). You certainly don't need to do the advanced calibration every time.


Quote:
I own 2 quarqs, and a powertap, I did have the Look power pedals, and am going to buy the Vector for a particular purpose, so I'm not anti Vector, but nobody I know with much experience with Power Meters is very high on Vector, particularly at $1700 a pop.
Uh, it's been out for what, 3 days? Who's got one? There aren't even any reviews out yet.

Nor would I assume that the target market for the Vector is dominated by people who already own a PM. If you have and like your PM, there is little reason to switch. If you don't have one, you now have another choice. I really don't see how that's a bad thing.
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Old 08-08-13, 01:23 PM   #22
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That's because it hasn't been available outside a lab until now.

The reason no one suggests using it right now is because it's unclear what it means or how to use it. With a bit of research (which is apparently either starting soon or already in the works), we'll have a much better idea.
But force-sensing pedals *have* been available in the lab for (more than) 20 years, and even if consumers haven't had access to these kinds of data, researchers who are motivated to find anything publishable have.

Quote:
And considering how much work people put into perfecting their pedal stroke, I don't see how it's a bad thing to see hard data on your pedal stroke.

Which apparently everyone except you believes.
Not only him.

Quote:
I don't see what you're reading that is so onerous. Vector has one pod, not two; swapping a BB isn't rocket science, but it clearly involves a few more steps than swapping pedals.
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Old 08-08-13, 01:26 PM   #23
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Which apparently everyone except you believes.
Incorrect. This has been a repeated discussion with regard to crank based power meters in the racing forum. There are many people who use Quarqs and SRM's and swap them from bike to bike on a repeated basis.

With my Quarq, moving the crank to another bike is a one tool operation. You turn an 8mm allen wrench until the crankarm comes off, you slide the crank off, slide it on to the next bike, put the arm on and tighten one bolt. With talent, you can do it without touching either chain.

Admittedly, changing the Vector from bike to bike is not much more complicated, but you've got to remove 2 pedals, so moving from side to side of the bike, and pedals sometimes cn take a bit of effort to get loose, youv'e got to put the antenna piece, and washer on (which may require different washers if you're using different cranks) you've got to get it alligned, and you've got to plug in the antenna piece to the pedal spindle.

Having swapped Quarqs and Look Power Pedals from bike to bike, I have a pretty good idea what's invloved, and I'm certain that I can swap a Quarq as fast, or faster than swapping the Vector pedals.

Of course having another option is a good thing, and I hope the Vector works out. Heck I'm going to buy 2 sets of them, so I need them to work.

My point is that the claimed advanatages are not earth shattering, and absent special circumstances, most people are better served with existing options until the Garmin is beta tested.
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Old 08-08-13, 01:35 PM   #24
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I'm going to buy a pair, because I have a specific need that there's not a good answer for: power meter on a tandem.
Why? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in knowing because whatever data you get from it would mean what? Unless there are tandem races I am not ware of.
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Old 08-08-13, 01:43 PM   #25
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My keos were new prior to last season, but now after a season and a half of crits the pedal bodies look like they been through a food processor (pedal strikes, general use, 3 crashes). For what my pedals go through I'd be hesitant to go this route for my own purposes. Rainmakers review mentions that the Garmin people never had a pod hit the ground..thats good. but the pedal spindle contain the gauges. I think if i did ITTS or triathalon or pursuit the pedals would be a better option. For me, doing crits/smash up derby racing maybe not.
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