Paceline effects and numbers
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Paceline effects and numbers
So I've heard the usual "You can save up to 30% effort by drafting," and the basics of how paceline rotations and slipstreams work. And I know they vary depending on wind conditions speeds and hills. That's all well and good, but I'm still curious. I did a search for older posts, but nothing apparent popped up. Let me know if I missed something.
As you go further back in the paceline, it would SEEM to me that one's effort drops [marginally] further. Like the second person save 30% energy, the third save 34%, the fourth saves 35.5% etc. and so on. To your knowledge, has anyone looked into this as a possibility and even published results? Or is this some common knowledge that I've managed to avoid for this long?
It's something that's been sitting in the back of my mind for a while. Any info would be great, thanks!
As you go further back in the paceline, it would SEEM to me that one's effort drops [marginally] further. Like the second person save 30% energy, the third save 34%, the fourth saves 35.5% etc. and so on. To your knowledge, has anyone looked into this as a possibility and even published results? Or is this some common knowledge that I've managed to avoid for this long?
It's something that's been sitting in the back of my mind for a while. Any info would be great, thanks!
#2
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That migt be true if everyone in the line rode at the exact same speed and kept things super smooth. Things like wind, changes in pace, riders leaving gaps probably more than compensate for any additional benefit.
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#3
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You are essentially thinking correctly, but your savings estimates might be a bit high. And once you 3-4th wheel I doubt there is much difference. What does make a difference is having riders on either side. When you are on the inside of a pack (think TdF peloton) you need to work less than if you are a rider in a single paceline.
Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost.
Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost.
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But the tradeoff is the further back you get, the more "yo-yo'ing" there is, which results in surges and lulls, and the need for little accelerations that take energy.
So there's a sweetspot, several riders back from the front, but not far enough back that the yo yoing becomes a problem that is the most efficient place to be. Exactly where that sweetspot is will vary depending on a number of factors, including how smooth the group is.
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Beaker: Yeah, I imagine you're right, but I still wonder what those numbers would be if everything were ideal.
canam73: They very well may be high. I totally just made them up. I hadn't thought about the either side thing, but that makes a lot of sense given the shear forces.
Thanks for your input.
canam73: They very well may be high. I totally just made them up. I hadn't thought about the either side thing, but that makes a lot of sense given the shear forces.
Thanks for your input.
#6
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#8
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Having a rider behind you eliminates the low pressure region behind you (effectively pulling you back). Its a well studied effect for avian flight and in NASCAR. If I recall the difference is only a few percent reduction in drag.
#9
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*If you run some numbers, you'd see A) the speed and size of a Nascar racer is so far removed from a bicycle to make it irrelevant. B) Pressure drag is such a small component of total drag that changing the pressure behind the rider could not create an observable change in drag.
#10
Senior Member
There's a difference between conceiving of a mechanism and data*.
*If you run some numbers, you'd see A) the speed and size of a Nascar racer is so far removed from a bicycle to make it irrelevant. B) Pressure drag is such a small component of total drag that changing the pressure behind the rider could not create an observable change in drag.
*If you run some numbers, you'd see A) the speed and size of a Nascar racer is so far removed from a bicycle to make it irrelevant. B) Pressure drag is such a small component of total drag that changing the pressure behind the rider could not create an observable change in drag.
But hey, this is the 41 so it matters.
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There's a difference between conceiving of a mechanism and data*.
*If you run some numbers, you'd see A) the speed and size of a Nascar racer is so far removed from a bicycle to make it irrelevant. B) Pressure drag is such a small component of total drag that changing the pressure behind the rider could not create an observable change in drag.
*If you run some numbers, you'd see A) the speed and size of a Nascar racer is so far removed from a bicycle to make it irrelevant. B) Pressure drag is such a small component of total drag that changing the pressure behind the rider could not create an observable change in drag.
Edit: "See it making a difference" = trust that there would be a difference, not "this happened to me and I felt it."
Last edited by PiLigand; 08-08-13 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Clarification
#12
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Last edited by asgelle; 08-08-13 at 09:42 AM.
#13
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Following some links from Asgelle's post I came across this to answer one of OP's first questions:
(in regards to a 9 man TTT)"The simulation results were illuminating. Compared with the lead cyclist, the drag of the rider in the second position is reduced by 21%. The third rider feels a further small decrease in drag over the second, but from the third rider back all other cyclists experience almost identical drag."
From this:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
(in regards to a 9 man TTT)"The simulation results were illuminating. Compared with the lead cyclist, the drag of the rider in the second position is reduced by 21%. The third rider feels a further small decrease in drag over the second, but from the third rider back all other cyclists experience almost identical drag."
From this:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
#14
Senior Member
Well, a 30 sec google search actually turned up some CFD simulations of 2-rider configurations.
https://sts.bwk.tue.nl/urbanphysics/p...H_Preprint.pdf
"Compared to an isolated cyclist and for d = 0.01 m, the drag reduction of the leading cyclist is 0.8%, 1.7% and 2.6% for UP (hoods), DP (drops) and TTP (time-trial), respectively. Apart from the well-known drag reduction for the trailing cyclist, this study also confirms and quantifies the drag reduction for the leading cyclist."
There you go, cycling specific results. The answer is a few percent at most.
https://sts.bwk.tue.nl/urbanphysics/p...H_Preprint.pdf
"Compared to an isolated cyclist and for d = 0.01 m, the drag reduction of the leading cyclist is 0.8%, 1.7% and 2.6% for UP (hoods), DP (drops) and TTP (time-trial), respectively. Apart from the well-known drag reduction for the trailing cyclist, this study also confirms and quantifies the drag reduction for the leading cyclist."
There you go, cycling specific results. The answer is a few percent at most.
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Following some links from Asgelle's post I came across this to answer one of OP's first questions:
(in regards to a 9 man TTT)"The simulation results were illuminating. Compared with the lead cyclist, the drag of the rider in the second position is reduced by 21%. The third rider feels a further small decrease in drag over the second, but from the third rider back all other cyclists experience almost identical drag."
From this:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
(in regards to a 9 man TTT)"The simulation results were illuminating. Compared with the lead cyclist, the drag of the rider in the second position is reduced by 21%. The third rider feels a further small decrease in drag over the second, but from the third rider back all other cyclists experience almost identical drag."
From this:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
Haha, thanks all who contributed. i appreciate your input.
#17
Senior Member
Incorrect.
Since apparently you missed it 2 posts above:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
And note I said: Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost.
Since apparently you missed it 2 posts above:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
And note I said: Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost.
#18
Senior Member
Incorrect.
Since apparently you missed it 2 posts above:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
And note I said: Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost.
Since apparently you missed it 2 posts above:
https://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaabey.htm
But also in there is this:
"Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is that, despite the full force of the oncoming air, the lead rider experiences lower drag than if he were riding an ITT at the same speed. The drag coefficient of the leading TTT rider is 0.277, while that of an individual rider is 0.285. This occurs because the second place rider reduces the influence of the lead rider’s wake, increasing his base pressure and consequently reducing the drag force."
And note I said: Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost.
#19
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What I did say was: "Some studies also indicate having somebody draft you gives the leader a very small boost." What exactly about that are you taking issue with?
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I was under the impression that the 30% thing was a number we just used to get into the ballpark. Do you have on better authority than this report that the reduction for rider number 2 should be higher?
#21
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No issue, just expanding on the quality of the study for the general readership. I don't have time to read through the pre-print paper now.
#22
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Really? I'd say they probably have a good case, but being skeptical is never a bad thing. Except in vaccines. That's a different argument.
I was under the impression that the 30% thing was a number we just used to get into the ballpark. Do you have on better authority than this report that the reduction for rider number 2 should be higher?
I was under the impression that the 30% thing was a number we just used to get into the ballpark. Do you have on better authority than this report that the reduction for rider number 2 should be higher?
#23
Senior Member
Not sure if this has anything to do with the discrepancy, but there are a few ways to express the drafting effect. Common are either common are reduction of drag or reduction of watts required and these can be different.
#24
Senior Member
Paceline effects and numbers
In my best Jackie Stewart impression;
"They call it drafting here at Taledega. The drivers are literally sucked around the track"
"They call it drafting here at Taledega. The drivers are literally sucked around the track"
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Um, yeah, lots of people have looked into this as a possibility. I looked at some data last year in the run-up to the Olympics measuring drag for a pursuit team. I don't think I'm supposed to divulge which team but 1) drag continued to drop, though diminishingly, the farther back you go; 2) the amount of savings depends on who's in front of you in the rotation; 3) Olympic team pursuit has either 3 (women) or 4 (men) riders, so I don't know what happens if teams are larger than that; and 4) we didn't look at individual drag (we were looking at team pursuit, after all) so I don't know what happens to the lead rider in a team vs. individual situation.