Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-22-13, 07:07 AM   #1
kenshireen
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Bike Weight-Where is it really important and where not

OK...so I have a good CF bike...
I am not a pro racer.

How important is it to get a 200 gr saddle when my big butt is firmly attached to it when I ride.
Does the seat weight make a difference (including seat post weight). Does it matter if I carry my spare tube/equipment in the mack of my shirt or in a saddle bag that is attached to the bike.

If I used CG water bottle holders but use 22 ounce water bottles is that going to negate the benefit of the light cage.

I buy CF titanium spindled pedals and the lightest shoes.. but my big 13 feet are inside these super light shoes pushing on these superlight pedals.

I think you understand my question.
I know that revolving weight...tires/wheels/tubes make a difference.

BUT.. do these other really make a differenc
kenshireen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 07:56 AM   #2
Koroviev
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenshireen View Post
OK...so I have a good CF bike...
I am not a pro racer.

How important is it to get a 200 gr saddle when my big butt is firmly attached to it when I ride.
Does the seat weight make a difference (including seat post weight). Does it matter if I carry my spare tube/equipment in the mack of my shirt or in a saddle bag that is attached to the bike.

If I used CG water bottle holders but use 22 ounce water bottles is that going to negate the benefit of the light cage.

I buy CF titanium spindled pedals and the lightest shoes.. but my big 13 feet are inside these super light shoes pushing on these superlight pedals.

I think you understand my question.
I know that revolving weight...tires/wheels/tubes make a difference.

BUT.. do these other really make a differenc
None of it makes a difference. Worry about saddle weight when there's no excess weight left on your body and you desperately need a 0.8% performance increase in the high mountains, i.e. never.
Koroviev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 08:00 AM   #3
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,108
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koroviev View Post
None of it makes a difference. Worry about saddle weight when there's no excess weight left on your body and you desperately need a 0.8% performance increase in the high mountains, i.e. never.
It all makes a difference. Grams here and there all add up. Take 3-4lbs off a bike and it will be measurably faster, particularly climbing, and accelerating.

It won't make as big of difference as many people would like to believe, but it does make a difference.

And "the don't worry about the bike's weight, until there's no excess weight on your body" is a false choice. No reason you can't put yourself and your bike on a diet.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 08:17 AM   #4
Bacciagalupe
Professional Fuss-Budget
 
Bacciagalupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 6,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree and disagree with Merlin.

For example: You weigh 180 pounds, the bike 20. You're on a 7.5% grade, 5 miles long, at 250 watts. The climb will take you 40 minutes. If you reduce the bike's weight to 15 pounds, you'll save 30-60 seconds (or about 5 watts).

You have to decide, for yourself, if those margins matter to how and why you ride.

That said:
• I think it's pretty clear that the advantages of a lighter bike are exaggerated.
• You're going to pay a premium for those tiny weight losses.
• If you get dropped on a climb, no one is going to believe it's because your saddle weighs 300g instead of 200g.
Bacciagalupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 08:31 AM   #5
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Bikes: 2009 Jamis Xenith
Posts: 13,113
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
In before "just take a dump before your ride," "empty one of your water bottles," and other such inanities.
WhyFi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 09:34 AM   #6
IANative
Senior Member
 
IANative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Midwest
Bikes: Orbea Orca Rival, Specialized Roubaix SL2 Rival, Specialized CrossTrail Sport
Posts: 257
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Where lies the biggest weight-savings opportunity on a factory bike? Wheels?
IANative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 11:50 AM   #7
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
As pointed out by merlin, a lighter bike (by 2,3 or 4 Ibs) is gonna make some difference, the real issue is whether that difference is cost-effective in terms of how much paid to rid your bike of the excess poundage.
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 11:51 AM   #8
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IANative View Post
Where lies the biggest weight-savings opportunity on a factory bike? Wheels?
Next to the frame itself, the wheels are the next "weight godzilla" on a factory bike.
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 11:54 AM   #9
Leukybear
THE STUFFED
 
Leukybear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sandy Eggo, CA
Bikes: Sworks Venge; Rock Lobster; EAI Bareknuckle
Posts: 12,115
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jed19 View Post
the real issue is whether that difference is cost-effective in terms of how much paid to rid your bike of the excess poundage.
QFT before you guys start going out and buying latex tubes.
Leukybear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:04 PM   #10
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,108
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
As pointed out by merlin, a lighter bike (by 2,3 or 4 Ibs) is gonna make some difference, the real issue is whether that difference is cost-effective in terms of how much paid to rid your bike of the excess poundage.
The performance difference is pretty small. A 3lb weight difference in bikes, results in about .1mph speed difference on an 8% grade for an average size and strength rider.

You'll pay a lot of money to get that 3lb weight savings, and just riding around, the .1mph is hardly going to be noticeable.

But if your racing, closely matched with your competition and care about winning, that 3lbs is almost a minute over a 5 mile climb, which could be significant.

Thus, I totally agree it's a question of how much the small differences are worth to you.


Also, I'd say it's easier to make a case for a lighter bike based on more subjective grounds, like how it feels to ride, and bragging rights, than upon speed increases.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:09 PM   #11
slowride454
Senior Member
 
slowride454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Appleton WI
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix - Soma Double Cross Disc - Salsa Spearfish - Canfield Brothers Yelli Screamy - Specialized Carve SL - Trek Farley 7 - GT Dyno VFR
Posts: 511
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IANative View Post
Where lies the biggest weight-savings opportunity on a factory bike? Wheels?
On my Roubaix, the most cost effective weight losses were the crankset and wheelset.

SRAM
S100 1025g w/ PowerSpline BB
Rival 830g w/ BB

I paid $125 at Competitive Cyclist for the Rival crankset. I saved 1.56grams/$

For wheels
Mavic CXP22 - 2200g
Custom H Plus Son/BHS - 1600g

I paid $380 for these wheels from a fellow BF member. I saved 1.58grams/$

I did not sell the spare parts though. The wheels would probably get a better return on the used market, but I'm building up a beater flatbar road bike and am using an old Nashbar frame with the wheels, crankset, and additional weightloss refugees (stem/handlebars) from my mountain bike.
slowride454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:17 PM   #12
FrenchFit 
The Left Coast, USA
 
FrenchFit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 3,015
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Wheelsets aside, it makes a noticeable difference but in my book it's hardly worth the expense/hassle. Even knocking off a pound or two makes my bikes feel a tad more zippy, accelerate nicely, pulse up grades, etc., etc. Lightweight saddles? - I do like them, the bike doesn't labor when you swing it side to side. But it's hardly worth spending the money when losing 5-10lbs off the body will get in a better overall result. I'd take a lighter body/heavier bike anyday.
FrenchFit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:27 PM   #13
Gramercy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Bikes: Trek 1.2
Posts: 809
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think aerodynamics on a different set of wheels is more important than the weight savings of getting a new wheel. At least that's what I read. I always wonder how much faster I would be if I put on a more aero set of wheels.
Gramercy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:29 PM   #14
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 19,666
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
Wheelsets aside, it makes a noticeable difference but in my book it's hardly worth the expense/hassle. Even knocking off a pound or two makes my bikes feel a tad more zippy, accelerate nicely, pulse up grades, etc., etc. Lightweight saddles? - I do like them, the bike doesn't labor when you swing it side to side. But it's hardly worth spending the money when losing 5-10lbs off the body will get in a better overall result. I'd take a lighter body/heavier bike anyday.
As I posted recently, I just completed my rebuild of a repainted steel frame. Picking much the same parts (not all quite as light) as on my 13.8 CF bike and substituting 1/2 lb heavier carbon wheels, the total came in at 16.8 lb. Three pounds difference right on the money. Well I just rode it for the first time today. The performance difference was way too small for me to detect, but in handling the bike, picking it up, hanging it on the ceiling hook, push it forward to get started at a green light, etc. I can really feel the difference. This is all completely different than issues regarding my body weight. This is about wrestling the steel bike around. I love this bike, but I am a sucker for lighter, much lighter. "Riding" a lighter bike is a joy that can't be matched by much of anything else you can do to a bike (electronic shifting for example). Riding is in quotation marks because it means a lot of things, actual riding just being on of them. Everything is not just about racing results (casual or organized). There are other aesthetic aspects to bike riding, and a lighter machine maximizes many of them.

First wheels, then frame, then it doesn't matter anymore. Whatever you can afford.
rpenmanparker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:33 PM   #15
danmc
Senior Member
 
danmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Bikes:
Posts: 923
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
In before "just take a dump before your ride," "empty one of your water bottles," and other such inanities.

I don't even carry water. I stop by people's houses along my route and drink out of their garden spigots. The weight savings on the bike is tremendous, and the amount of weight I've lost personally from running from being shot at is priceless.
danmc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:41 PM   #16
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,108
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
I think aerodynamics on a different set of wheels is more important than the weight savings of getting a new wheel. At least that's what I read. I always wonder how much faster I would be if I put on a more aero set of wheels.

Depending on how aero your current wheels are, and how fast your ride, about .1-.2mph
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:49 PM   #17
Nachoman
Senior Member
 
Nachoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Point Loma, CA
Bikes: Bill Holland (Road-Ti), Fuji Roubaix Pro (back-up), Bike Friday (folder), Co-Motion (tandem) & Trek 750 (hybrid)
Posts: 14,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
• If you get dropped on a climb, no one is going to believe it's because your saddle weighs 300g instead of 200g.
I can only imagine the looks I'll get if I try delivering that excuse next time I'm dropped on a climb.
Maybe I'll try it tomorrow.
__________________
.
.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
Nachoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 12:56 PM   #18
dbf73
TFO
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Plymouth, MN
Bikes:
Posts: 243
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by danmc View Post
I don't even carry water. I stop by people's houses along my route and drink out of their garden spigots. The weight savings on the bike is tremendous, and the amount of weight I've lost personally from running from being shot at is priceless.
that's it, that's the ticket AND you save having to wash bottles
dbf73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 01:01 PM   #19
Cyclelogikal 
An Average Joe
 
Cyclelogikal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: NC
Bikes: '13 Orbea Orca
Posts: 646
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In the grand scheme of things for us average Joe's who cycle for exercise and with other like minded people..............fit is the most important thing and mainly the saddle. In all reality most road bikes (modern) that is are roughly the same weight to a lay person if lifted up by one arm. SO that weight means nothing. Now if your competing and your foes are all roughly same weight as you and experience and ability shaving weight (grams) even ounces could mean beating them at the finish by hundreds of a second or so and then it means all!

But for a majority of us > I would say 99% here...............just ride and enjoy! There are always those you see while riding that have the Armstrong complex and think they are pro's when they are actually just Joe's! I laugh at them when I pass them and it makes my day...............
Cyclelogikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 01:30 PM   #20
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Posts: 11,104
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
I figure losing weight off the bike comes in at around $1000/lb. The ~$1.58/g mentioned upthread works out to $717/lb. I think about that when I get on the scale in the morning. So far this year, I've saved the cost of a new Calfee tandem. Of course you can do both things at once, but still . . .

I don't think the location of the saved weight makes much difference, though saving it off your body makes more difference than saving it off your bike. Lots easier to climb out of the saddle standing if you're light. Everyone knows it's better to carry water in bottles than in a Camelbak as far as energy cost goes. Weight makes a much larger difference if you're racing and already climbing near the front. Doesn't take many seconds to put you from there onto the leader's wheel on a long climb. But for a more recreational cyclist, it's just seconds/lb., i.e. like $100/second/lb.

It's fun to play with calculators like this one:
http://www.hembrow.eu/personal/kreuzotter/espeed.htm
to answer these questions:
Carbonfiberboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 01:32 PM   #21
Gramercy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Bikes: Trek 1.2
Posts: 809
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Depending on how aero your current wheels are, and how fast your ride, about .1-.2mph

Seriously, that's it? I was hoping for 10x that. Screw that, I'm not getting new carbon wheels, no matter how much they are advertised on this website sidebar.
Gramercy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 01:57 PM   #22
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem
Posts: 29,108
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
Seriously, that's it? I was hoping for 10x that. Screw that, I'm not getting new carbon wheels, no matter how much they are advertised on this website sidebar.
I might be slightly pessimistic there, but probably not far off in the real world. Take Zipp 404's. Zipp claims they save 80 seconds in a 40K TT at 30mph. That works out to .8mph

Now put some real world assumptions in there. You're not typically going to be crusining at 30 mph. The mph difference becomes much smaller at say 20 mph (although the elapsed time difference can get bigger). Next, I'm pretty sure Zipp does that calculation at optimal wind angles to make their point. Real world, varying wind angles, my bet is the speed advantage narrows again, and finally I'd be willing to bet they're picking a pretty un aero wheel to compare them to.
(they say a top selling aluminum race wheel, which I wouldn't doubt with be a Kysirium which has the drag of a parachute).

Distill all that down, and we're talking a real world difference not of miles per hour, but tenths of miles per hour.

Owning 3 different sets of Zipp's, I 'm certain any advantage is well below 1mph.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 01:57 PM   #23
gsa103
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Bikes: Bianchi Infinito (Celeste, of course)
Posts: 2,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
There's really about 2 categories of weight all of which have different impacts.

1) Rotating mass (removing this improves acceleration more greatly)
1a) Rim/tire weight (highest moment of inertia)
1b) Hub/crank/spoke weight (lower moment of inertia)

2) Fixed mass
Removing weight higher up feel lower the CQ and improve handling all else being equal.The rider is assumed to have a high CQ.
gsa103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 03:16 PM   #24
c0urt
moving target
 
c0urt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: birmingham, al
Bikes: a masi speciale, and a kuota k-factor.
Posts: 2,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
of course, there is having to carry bikes up stairs and stuff to, that makes a diff if a bike is heavy.




and this is a case where losing 5 pounds might make a diff.
c0urt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-13, 03:37 PM   #25
Jed19 
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 4,228
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0urt View Post
of course, there is having to carry bikes up stairs and stuff to, that makes a diff if a bike is heavy.




and this is a case where losing 5 pounds might make a diff.
Men, I can hear that rig snickering "does he really need to eat another bowl of ice cream?"
__________________
Regards,

Jed
Jed19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:09 PM.