Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-23-13, 06:36 AM   #51
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bike Business!!!
Bikes: Cannondale Super Six High Mod, Evo, Sram Red, CAAD9 Rival
Posts: 10,502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


This about covers it all for Jens.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fc,550x550,black_u1.jpg (77.0 KB, 60 views)
roadwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 06:52 AM   #52
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Long legs and especially long femurs cause knee elbow overlap. It just happens with tall guys regardless of reach. Although drop does seem to play a role. Not sure if the overlap would be as clear as with a bike that has a longer reach and no drop.
I have a similiar fit with jens. He has a inch moee drop and I have an inch more reach. I'm two inches taller than him and also have long legs.

Just to be clear, knee elbow overlap is in no way harmful or a bad thing. It just happens sometimes
Good post from another tall rider. I also am tallish although shorter than you and Jens and also have elbow/knee overlap...probably a good thing versus a bad thing.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 06:55 AM   #53
GamecockTaco
You rode how far???
 
GamecockTaco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Columbia, SC
Bikes: '96 Trek 830; 06 Cervelo Soloist, 06 Scott Scale 70, 2013 Cervelo S2
Posts: 579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post


This about covers it all for Jens.
not quite... needs something about geocaching... and something about Linda.
GamecockTaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 07:12 AM   #54
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bike Business!!!
Bikes: Cannondale Super Six High Mod, Evo, Sram Red, CAAD9 Rival
Posts: 10,502
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Hi Roadwarrior,
It is almost as sad as funny. You can't post anything here without at least somebody going off half cocked. Weird dynamic.
Thanks for your comments about Jens and in particular your comment about his mileage which is just unfathomable.
Not sure you read about Boonen's exploits recently...another very big guy on the pro peloton as you know. He is off the bike for an indeterminate period because of a saddle cyst. Even top guys fall prey to the unbelievable repetition of pro cycling in spite of their vigilance to avert such issues.
Didn't know Jens had so many kids either. Probably the bike is his only freedom.
Cheers
I read that somplace along the line...that's obviously racing and training.

The most I ever saw in a year was Ekimov...40,000 miles.
roadwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 07:27 AM   #55
therhodeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
The most I ever saw in a year was Ekimov...40,000 miles.
His body had plenty of assistance for that though.
therhodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 07:28 AM   #56
therhodeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
I'm a big fan of Jens, love his attitude and the way he rides but he would be the last person in pro cycling I would look to as someone who looks good riding a bike.
therhodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 07:46 AM   #57
pallen 
Descends like a rock
 
pallen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Bikes: Scott Foil, Surly Pacer
Posts: 4,022
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
He should have come to BF for fitting advice. I think we could help him out a lot. Maybe if he would post a video or something...
pallen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 07:49 AM   #58
Clipped_in
Rubber side down
 
Clipped_in's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Teh Quickie Mart
Bikes: Two wheels - common engine
Posts: 1,326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
I'm a big fan of Jens, love his attitude and the way he rides but he would be the last person in pro cycling I would look to as someone who looks good riding a bike.
Did you see the way he was solo descending in stage 3 on Wednesday? He was not only down on the top tube, but he was going even lower by hanging off the side of it. It looked waaay crazy. With Jens being as tall as he is and the fact that he seems to be quite flexible, I think his fit is as much about getting aero as it is about power and comfort. For goodness sake, over 100 miles with over 14k feet of climbing while maintaining ~25mph average. Holy Schnikey!
Clipped_in is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 08:10 AM   #59
snookanglr
padawan
 
snookanglr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Bikes: Bianchi Intenso, Trek Madone, Cannondale Synapse
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
That's the best position to explode so big.
snookanglr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 08:23 AM   #60
qcpmsame 
Cycling Saved My Life
 
qcpmsame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Bikes: '12 CAAD 10 Ultegra, '78 Medici Pro Strada
Posts: 9,795
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Jens signed for another year with Trek, that is the best news I have had in quite a bit. the special frame Trek came up with for him to use this week is spectacular. It has graphics with each of his 6 children on the top tube, a wolf's head and the famous "Shut Up Legs" on the down tube as well as the German national colours in tricolour stripes. Jerseys for each of his pro teams are on the Non-drive side chain stay, here is the link to the RBA on-line article:http://www.roadbikeaction.com/Relate...ial-VIDEO.html

Jens doesn't get road rash, the road gets Jen's rash.

Thanks for the post Campag, Jens is one of the greatest riders of all times in my book, Cycling Plus called him the ultimate MAMIL.

Bill
__________________
I Can Do All Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me. Philippians 4:13

"I did not choose to have Parkinson's Disease, I do choose not to allow it to control my life." Davis Phinney

Semper Fi, USMC, November 10, 1775, Tun Tavern, Philadelphia, PA.


Last edited by qcpmsame; 08-26-13 at 07:29 AM.
qcpmsame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 08:31 AM   #61
Jseis 
Protected Witness member
 
Jseis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Washington state on the ocean!
Bikes: 1973 Motobecane Grand Jubilee, 1981 Centurion Super LeMans, 2010 Gary Fisher Wahoo, 2003 Colnago Dream Lux, 2014 Giant Defy 1, 2015 Framed Bikes Minnesota 3.0, several older family Treks
Posts: 1,480
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
You shouldn't. I grew up playing competitive golf. There have been more than a few pro golfers career's ruined by trying to fit some biometric norm.
There are many schools on fit for both golf and cycling. A biometric fit is only as good as a biometric model which is just that...a model that likely doesn't crunch the 50 parameters involved in optimizing performance.
I have posted this about the great Lee Trevino...short little fat Mexican...also brilliant who grew up poor and without a father...in the hall of fame. Lee basically aligned 30 degrees left and hit a push on every shot. Super strong grip...dead shut clubface at the top of his swing. Very unorthodox. Punters would ask Lee, hey Lee, why is it you never took lessons and had your swing adjusted to a more contemporary model? He said quite simply, he never found a teacher he couldn't beat.
Dynamic analysis with biometrics makes sense. If a pro is looking for the competitive edge in this era (not decades ago)...it's going to come from somewhere and that somewhere is a better understanding of human motion, energy, etc. Thanks for making the argument that fitting is in the eye of the beholder.
__________________
Make Amerika Grate Cheese Again
Jseis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 08:38 AM   #62
bikerjp
Beer >> Sanity
 
bikerjp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado
Bikes: 2014 Evo DA2, 2010 Caad9-4, 2011 Synapse-4, 2013 CaadX-disc
Posts: 3,449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post


This about covers it all for Jens.
What about "[I] swallowed her and did chew every bit of honey out of that bee."

http://road.cc/content/news/58531-je...minisce-videos
bikerjp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 09:20 AM   #63
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcpmsame View Post
Jens signed for another year with Trek, that is the best news I have had in quite a bit. the special frame Trek came up with for him to use this week is spectacular. It has graphics with each of his 6 children on the top tube, a wolf's head and the famous "Shut Up Legs" on the down tube as well as the German national colours in tricolour stripes. Jerseys for each of his pro teams are on the Non-drive side chain stay, here is the link to the RBA on-line article:http://www.roadbikeaction.com/Relate...ial-VIDEO.html

Jens doesn't get road rash, the road gets Jen's rash.

Thanks for the post Campag, Jens is one of the greatest riders of all times in my book, Cycling Plus called him the ultimate MAMIL.

Bill

Bill
Hi Bill,
Jens is great for sure on many levels and quite a story of longevity and success.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 09:23 AM   #64
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jseis View Post
Dynamic analysis with biometrics makes sense. If a pro is looking for the competitive edge in this era (not decades ago)...it's going to come from somewhere and that somewhere is a better understanding of human motion, energy, etc. Thanks for making the argument that fitting is in the eye of the beholder.
Only problem and I have used dynamic computer models vocationally is...models are based upon boundary conditions and models are an imperfect analog of the actual subject. In other words, they are clumsy representation of the actual complexity of say for example a human being. Consider for example on a micro level what is going on with the flexibility of the human hip and its effect on saddle height. Elasticity of ligaments and tendons comprising the hip matrix isn't part of any biometric fit model...it is much too complex. But I agree that models can be useful for reference.

Last edited by Campag4life; 08-23-13 at 09:37 AM.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 09:25 AM   #65
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,065
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Check out Jens Voigt's position in the drops below.
Do you guys run this much arm/knee overlap in the drops?
Granted he is riding the rivet to open his hip angle a bit but seem like his handlebar is in awfully close.
Who is to quibble with a top pro but what do you guys think?
He's got a short torso and long legs. The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception). Very leggy people like that would probably be benefited by a forward saddle to avoid the elbow/knee overlap (though this would affect weight distribution adversely). The overlap can be a control issue too: one of our local track racers has a knee/elbow overlap; during a race he moved his elbow in reaction to another rider (or was bumped; was unclear from watching); his knee hit his elbow and his bike was pushed way off line from the hit.

Definitely not ideal, but I am not sure what a person with these types of body dimensions is to do about it.

I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 08-23-13 at 09:28 AM.
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 09:44 AM   #66
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
He's got a short torso and long legs. The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception). Very leggy people like that would probably be benefited by a forward saddle to avoid the elbow/knee overlap (though this would affect weight distribution adversely). The overlap can be a control issue too: one of our local track racers has a knee/elbow overlap; during a race he moved his elbow in reaction to another rider (or was bumped; was unclear from watching); his knee hit his elbow and his bike was pushed way off line from the hit.

Definitely not ideal, but I am not sure what a person with these types of body dimensions is to do about it.

I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
Good perspective Brian and yes we are all built differently which has a huge impact on our fit. I have a friend who is a strong cyclist and physically strong like yourself and could push big weight in the gym in his prime. We are close to the same height but he has long torso and short legs like you and our bikes are completely different. I have interest in Jens' fit because we are built similarly with long legs and long arms although I am a couple inches shorter than Jens with lower saddle height.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 10:53 AM   #67
dbf73
TFO
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Plymouth, MN
Bikes:
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
Actually, he did a Retul in the off season.
but the real question is did he actually keep and use the Retul fit or go back to his personal preference?
dbf73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 10:57 AM   #68
Nick Bain
Senior Member
 
Nick Bain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Driftless
Bikes: Caad8, Tarmac, Raleigh M80, Mukluk 3, Custom chopper.
Posts: 1,718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Long legs short torso the only way to get aero is to have your knees come inside your elbow like that.

also that position looks brutal for any regular cyclist.
Nick Bain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 11:00 AM   #69
cyclezen
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Bikes: a bunch
Posts: 3,122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Without question it works great for him and by no way do I question his fit for him...
Question, Always questions
Moving, changing, which is a constant process, without questioning, means we going to run into that door edge, that pole in our way, ouch!
Life without questions, observation and thinking is life without learning.

I like this thread
Some address the position 'question', others address the legend which Jens has become - it's all good. Some just don't get it...

Jens has become the 'Paul Bunyan' of cycling. At a time when cycling/road racing needs new legends.
Because he doesn't always win, because he rides from the heart as much as the head, because 'suffering' is his card, he embodies the idea that 'the effort' is equal to 'the result'. So many others could be 'this', but aren't.
Not many got real excited when Sagan pipped the sprint in Stage 3 of the Col. Pro Tour, but everyone was totally stoked by Jens' assault.
Jens makes me happy
cyclezen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 11:09 AM   #70
gsa103
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Bikes: Bianchi Infinito (Celeste, of course)
Posts: 3,207
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
I'm a similar body type. I think the problem is actually more complex even. Someone above mentioned lots of options for reach with long arms. With short arms, the opposite happens and the bars have to be perfect.

One way to think about upper body fit is two circles. The first is centered at your hips with the radius to you shoulders, the second is centered on your shoulders, with a radius determined by arm length (at correct angle). Someone with long arms can adjust their CG by adjusting arm position easily. With short arms, you need to adjust torso angle and then redo the arm position.
gsa103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 12:09 PM   #71
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
I'm a similar body type. I think the problem is actually more complex even. Someone above mentioned lots of options for reach with long arms. With short arms, the opposite happens and the bars have to be perfect.

One way to think about upper body fit is two circles. The first is centered at your hips with the radius to you shoulders, the second is centered on your shoulders, with a radius determined by arm length (at correct angle). Someone with long arms can adjust their CG by adjusting arm position easily. With short arms, you need to adjust torso angle and then redo the arm position.
Interesting perspective gsa...2 circles with center of each at pelvis and shoulder joints. Never thought of it that way.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 12:11 PM   #72
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
Thread Starter
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
Question, Always questions
Moving, changing, which is a constant process, without questioning, means we going to run into that door edge, that pole in our way, ouch!
Life without questions, observation and thinking is life without learning.

I like this thread
Some address the position 'question', others address the legend which Jens has become - it's all good. Some just don't get it...

Jens has become the 'Paul Bunyan' of cycling. At a time when cycling/road racing needs new legends.
Because he doesn't always win, because he rides from the heart as much as the head, because 'suffering' is his card, he embodies the idea that 'the effort' is equal to 'the result'. So many others could be 'this', but aren't.
Not many got real excited when Sagan pipped the sprint in Stage 3 of the Col. Pro Tour, but everyone was totally stoked by Jens' assault.
Jens makes me happy
He is a good story in a sport that desperately needs a good story.
You will laugh but comparing his and my fit is pretty comical. His hood position is 'almost' equivalent to my drop position.
What do we have in common? We both ride bikes...he a whole lot more and faster than me.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 02:19 PM   #73
OldTryGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SW Fl.
Bikes: 1982 Custom Touring Paramount, 1983 Road Paramount, 2013 Giant Propel Advanced SL3, 2002 Magna 7sp hybrid, 1976 Bassett Racing 45sp Cruiser
Posts: 2,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
I read that somplace along the line...that's obviously racing and training.

The most I ever saw in a year was Ekimov...40,000 miles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therhodeo View Post
His body had plenty of assistance for that though.
Million Mile Freddie Hoffman, http://miles4melanoma.com/freddiehoffman/, has it over them all.

Before we moved to Fl., Freddie gave us a custom made wall plaque with a set of his 50,000 mile chain rings. Freddie gave Mike Fraysse http://www.usbhof.org/inductee-by-year/63-mike-fraysse his first wall plaque.
OldTryGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 04:29 PM   #74
Jseis 
Protected Witness member
 
Jseis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: SW Washington state on the ocean!
Bikes: 1973 Motobecane Grand Jubilee, 1981 Centurion Super LeMans, 2010 Gary Fisher Wahoo, 2003 Colnago Dream Lux, 2014 Giant Defy 1, 2015 Framed Bikes Minnesota 3.0, several older family Treks
Posts: 1,480
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Back in the day...Car and Driver would super tune a car to see what it would really do. They'd mess with timing, distributor springs, carb jetting, etc, and then measure rear wheel HP gains. I view fitting as similar and the future will probably be even more interesting. A convergence of biomedical engineering and athletic performance gets you to motion, energy and that means power. Imagine a cyclist being asked to stretch, warm at certain Vo2 or change position or do X and then the analysis reveals where the gains are. I'd be really surprised if this wasn't already happening because if winning is a game of inches..it's also a game of a few watts on the other guy. Why else would Froome go OSymetric? (and what would a fitter say about that!?) This will never eliminate the head and heart (aka Jens) but it is aperformance enhancement of a different sort. I'm basically a C&V kinda of cyclist but as a closet gear head..I love the tech and that + human performance evolution continues unabated.
__________________
Make Amerika Grate Cheese Again

Last edited by Jseis; 08-23-13 at 04:38 PM.
Jseis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-13, 04:44 PM   #75
BoSoxYacht
Banned
 
BoSoxYacht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: take your time, enjoy the scenery, it will be there when you get to it
Bikes: 07 IRO BFGB fixed-gear, 07 Pedal Force RS
Posts: 7,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think Jens knows what works for him.
BoSoxYacht is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:56 AM.