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  1. #76
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Bear in mind that this is a pro cyclist for the better part of 20 years who has been on major pro teams most of which had close relationships with major bicycle manufacturers. These guys spend a considerable amount of time being fawned over by factory reps who are experts on bike fit, and then in wind tunnel testing, etc, etc. I'm highly confident Jens' fit has been uber-analyzed to death by several different major bicycle firms.

    Ultimately half of this bike fit voodoo is utter bull**** anyway, it's what works for YOU.

  2. #77
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    This thread really raised the 41 Idiot Bar to unprecedented heights.

    Who would have even that that possible?











    Well done.

  3. #78
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    Bear in mind that this is a pro cyclist for the better part of 20 years who has been on major pro teams most of which had close relationships with major bicycle manufacturers. These guys spend a considerable amount of time being fawned over by factory reps who are experts on bike fit, and then in wind tunnel testing, etc, etc. I'm highly confident Jens' fit has been uber-analyzed to death by several different major bicycle firms.

    Ultimately half of this bike fit voodoo is utter bull**** anyway, it's what works for YOU.
    I agree with this...but your blanket post that followed is what lowers the bar on the 41...not people sharing their opinion.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    He's got a short torso and long legs. The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception). Very leggy people like that would probably be benefited by a forward saddle to avoid the elbow/knee overlap (though this would affect weight distribution adversely). The overlap can be a control issue too: one of our local track racers has a knee/elbow overlap; during a race he moved his elbow in reaction to another rider (or was bumped; was unclear from watching); his knee hit his elbow and his bike was pushed way off line from the hit.

    Definitely not ideal, but I am not sure what a person with these types of body dimensions is to do about it.

    I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
    Curious as to why....

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    I agree with this...but your blanket post that followed is what lowers the bar on the 41...not people sharing their opinion.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ... The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception).
    Quote Originally Posted by Miller2 View Post
    Curious as to why....
    I believe, unless they've changed it, the actual measurement is not less than 50mm of setback from BB center to the forward most part of the saddle nose. IOW minimum saddle setback of 50mm.

    As to the reason. Well, the UCI want to control the aesthetic of cycling and are concerned that if they let people move their saddles closer to the bottom bracket they would rotate their positons around said BB toward looking increasingly like superman. We must all ride like Eddy did. So sayeth the UCI. Amen.
    Last edited by bigfred; 08-25-13 at 06:59 PM.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  7. #82
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    I agree with this...but your blanket post that followed is what lowers the bar on the 41...not people sharing their opinion.
    The idiocy here is infinite, like the cosmos itself.

    If that observation lowers your bar, look inward young Fredling.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
    Jens - a tall guy, long legs and arms, short torso.
    his position is not that crunched up for him
    here's his bike, his setup specs
    http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/a...-series-36321/
    note the saddlesetback and saddle to bar dim...
    short torso and long legs usually means a lot more setup options when it come to reach - my take...
    seems to work for him
    And I'm built a lot like Jens:
    Relatively tall, long legs, long arms, short torso, and my position is a lot like Jens' as well. I also ride a lot like Je....well.....I ride a lot.

  9. #84
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    He's got a short torso and long legs. The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception). Very leggy people like that would probably be benefited by a forward saddle to avoid the elbow/knee overlap (though this would affect weight distribution adversely). The overlap can be a control issue too: one of our local track racers has a knee/elbow overlap; during a race he moved his elbow in reaction to another rider (or was bumped; was unclear from watching); his knee hit his elbow and his bike was pushed way off line from the hit.

    Definitely not ideal, but I am not sure what a person with these types of body dimensions is to do about it.

    I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
    What does a sloped top tube have to do with it?
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  10. #85
    don't misunderestimate me BoSoxYacht's Avatar
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    I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    What does a sloped top tube have to do with it?
    is this a serious question?

  11. #86
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    What does a sloped top tube have to do with it?
    Most manufacturers have used a sloped top tube to increase the head tube length. This make it challenging for me to fit to a frame, requiring me to choose between handlebar drop, reach, and bike handling (stem length). It took a while to get the bike right after my level top tube 2007 5.2 Madone was warrantee replaced with a sloped top tube 2013 4.7 Madone. I went from a size 58cm to a size 56, replaced the stock headset cap with a low profile (and slammed the stem), the 120mm stem with a 130, and moved the saddle forward a cm or so. It all worked out, but it took a while and some experimenting to get right.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 08-25-13 at 09:51 PM.
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  12. #87
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I believe, unless they've changed it, the actual measurement is not less than 50mm of setback from BB center to the forward most part of the saddle nose. IOW minimum saddle setback of 50mm.
    ...
    If you have an anatomical exception, which most if not all of the pros you see on TV have, you can have the saddle nose even with the BB center.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    If you have an anatomical exception, which most if not all of the pros you see on TV have, you can have the saddle nose even with the BB center.
    Do you know the criteria for the anatomical exception? I thought there wasn't one, not even for TT'ing. Unlike the forward limit of the bars, which allows you the extra 5cm as long as your elbow angle does not exceed 120deg.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Never mind. I found it. I would be surprised if it was any help to the long legged guys. Most of them will be Knee ahead of pedal spindle at 5cm of setback unless they're running really long cranks. Now I understand why it hadn't stuck in my head. It's a rule for the shorter riders. Just as the handlebar exception is there for the tall/long riders.

    "The peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle (1). This restriction shall not be applied to the bicycle ridden by a rider in a Flying 200 m, Flying Lap, Team Sprint, track sprint event, keirin, 500 metres or 1 kilometre time trials; however, in no circumstances shall the peak of the saddle extend in front of a vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle.

    (1) The distances mentioned in footnote (1) to articles 1.3.013 and 1.3.016 above may be reduced where that is necessary for morphological reasons. By morphological reasons should be understood everything to do with the size and limb length of the rider.

    Any rider who, for these reasons, considers that he needs to use a bicycle of lesser dimensions than those given shall inform the commissaires' panel to that effect when presenting his licence. In that case, the panel may conduct the following test. Using a plumb-line, they shall check to see whether, when pedalling, the point of the rider's knee when at its foremost position passes beyond a vertical line passing through the pedal spindle (see diagram «Measurements (2)»)."
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  15. #90
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Do you know the criteria for the anatomical exception? I thought there wasn't one, not even for TT'ing. Unlike the forward limit of the bars, which allows you the extra 5cm as long as your elbow angle does not exceed 120deg.
    Quote Originally Posted by www.slowtwitch.com
    ...

    The rule provides for what's called a morphological exception, and if a rider is especially short, or has a short femur, he or she can apply to have the saddle moved forward of that spot.

    How is such an application made, and how often is it granted? According to the rules, the riders are given a "test" by the commissaires prior to the race. You pedal the bike, and the forward protrusion of your knee cannot pass in front of the pedal axle. Of course, you simply ride on the rearward part of the saddle during the test. As one highly-placed federation technical director put, "Everyone who takes the test passes, and these people get to ride a position unavailable to the naive or unaware."

    ...

    http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadin...tr/tt_fit.html
    This is what I've found. It's about the knee position relative to the pedal axle. You get a morphological exception if you sit on the back of the saddle during the test.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  16. #91
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    I need a longer saddle.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  17. #92
    Senior Member Ice41000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Check out Jens Voigt's position in the drops below.
    Do you guys run this much arm/knee overlap in the drops?
    Granted he is riding the rivet to open his hip angle a bit but seem like his handlebar is in awfully close.
    Who is to quibble with a top pro but what do you guys think?
    I am pretty sure he knows what he is doing.

  18. #93
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice41000 View Post
    I am pretty sure he knows what he is doing.
    Actually Jens was pretty deflated by this thread until he read Pcad's endorsement. Now he has renewed confidence his position is OK.

  19. #94
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSoxYacht View Post
    I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.

    is this a serious question?
    Yes. Since a sloped top tube, in and of itself, has nothing to do with reach and I don't have relatively short legs.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  20. #95
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Most manufacturers have used a sloped top tube to increase the head tube length. This make it challenging for me to fit to a frame, requiring me to choose between handlebar drop, reach, and bike handling (stem length). It took a while to get the bike right after my level top tube 2007 5.2 Madone was warrantee replaced with a sloped top tube 2013 4.7 Madone. I went from a size 58cm to a size 56, replaced the stock headset cap with a low profile (and slammed the stem), the 120mm stem with a 130, and moved the saddle forward a cm or so. It all worked out, but it took a while and some experimenting to get right.
    I guess I had noticed that more frames are starting to look like sensible geometry for me. I hadn't thought about what that means for you.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    The idiocy here is infinite, like the cosmos itself.

    If that observation lowers your bar, look inward young Fredling.
    You're dealing with the yoda of fredlings there.

  22. #97
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Actually Jens was pretty deflated by this thread until he read Pcad's endorsement. Now he has renewed confidence his position is OK.
    Lol.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
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  23. #98
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    The idiocy here is infinite, like the cosmos itself.

    If that observation lowers your bar, look inward young Fredling.
    I chuckle about a fit comment from a rider who will take his bike to the shop to get a flat fixed.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  24. #99
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
    I chuckle about a fit comment from a rider who will take his bike to the shop to get a flat fixed.
    I don't know what you're talking about here, but then, that makes two of us.

  25. #100
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
    I don't know what you're talking about here, but then, that makes two of us.
    It's like he's in his very own class of Arrogant Idiot.

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