Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-24-13, 10:04 PM   #76
patentcad
Peloton Dog
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2013 Scott Foil, 2014 Scott Addict, 2008 Cervelo P3 (TT), 2015 Scott Scale 700SL MTB
Posts: 59,398
Bear in mind that this is a pro cyclist for the better part of 20 years who has been on major pro teams most of which had close relationships with major bicycle manufacturers. These guys spend a considerable amount of time being fawned over by factory reps who are experts on bike fit, and then in wind tunnel testing, etc, etc. I'm highly confident Jens' fit has been uber-analyzed to death by several different major bicycle firms.

Ultimately half of this bike fit voodoo is utter bull**** anyway, it's what works for YOU.
patentcad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-13, 10:05 PM   #77
patentcad
Peloton Dog
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2013 Scott Foil, 2014 Scott Addict, 2008 Cervelo P3 (TT), 2015 Scott Scale 700SL MTB
Posts: 59,398
This thread really raised the 41 Idiot Bar to unprecedented heights.

Who would have even that that possible?











Well done.
patentcad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 05:36 AM   #78
Campag4life
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
Bear in mind that this is a pro cyclist for the better part of 20 years who has been on major pro teams most of which had close relationships with major bicycle manufacturers. These guys spend a considerable amount of time being fawned over by factory reps who are experts on bike fit, and then in wind tunnel testing, etc, etc. I'm highly confident Jens' fit has been uber-analyzed to death by several different major bicycle firms.

Ultimately half of this bike fit voodoo is utter bull**** anyway, it's what works for YOU.
I agree with this...but your blanket post that followed is what lowers the bar on the 41...not people sharing their opinion.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 06:31 PM   #79
Miller2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southeast USA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
He's got a short torso and long legs. The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception). Very leggy people like that would probably be benefited by a forward saddle to avoid the elbow/knee overlap (though this would affect weight distribution adversely). The overlap can be a control issue too: one of our local track racers has a knee/elbow overlap; during a race he moved his elbow in reaction to another rider (or was bumped; was unclear from watching); his knee hit his elbow and his bike was pushed way off line from the hit.

Definitely not ideal, but I am not sure what a person with these types of body dimensions is to do about it.

I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
Curious as to why....
Miller2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 06:35 PM   #80
bigfred 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Posts: 3,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I agree with this...but your blanket post that followed is what lowers the bar on the 41...not people sharing their opinion.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
bigfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 06:40 PM   #81
bigfred 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Posts: 3,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
... The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller2 View Post
Curious as to why....
I believe, unless they've changed it, the actual measurement is not less than 50mm of setback from BB center to the forward most part of the saddle nose. IOW minimum saddle setback of 50mm.

As to the reason. Well, the UCI want to control the aesthetic of cycling and are concerned that if they let people move their saddles closer to the bottom bracket they would rotate their positons around said BB toward looking increasingly like superman. We must all ride like Eddy did. So sayeth the UCI. Amen.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

Last edited by bigfred; 08-25-13 at 06:59 PM.
bigfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 06:45 PM   #82
patentcad
Peloton Dog
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2013 Scott Foil, 2014 Scott Addict, 2008 Cervelo P3 (TT), 2015 Scott Scale 700SL MTB
Posts: 59,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
I agree with this...but your blanket post that followed is what lowers the bar on the 41...not people sharing their opinion.
The idiocy here is infinite, like the cosmos itself.

If that observation lowers your bar, look inward young Fredling.
patentcad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 09:00 PM   #83
stilltooslow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Merry Land
Bikes: Guru Evolo R, Colnago Pista, Look AL 464P SS, various frankenbikes
Posts: 433
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
Jens - a tall guy, long legs and arms, short torso.
his position is not that crunched up for him
here's his bike, his setup specs
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/a...-series-36321/
note the saddlesetback and saddle to bar dim...
short torso and long legs usually means a lot more setup options when it come to reach - my take...
seems to work for him
And I'm built a lot like Jens:
Relatively tall, long legs, long arms, short torso, and my position is a lot like Jens' as well. I also ride a lot like Je....well.....I ride a lot.
stilltooslow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 09:17 PM   #84
halfspeed
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Bikes: are better than yours.
Posts: 12,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
He's got a short torso and long legs. The UCI doesn't allow the saddle tip forward the bottom bracket (even with an anatomical exception). Very leggy people like that would probably be benefited by a forward saddle to avoid the elbow/knee overlap (though this would affect weight distribution adversely). The overlap can be a control issue too: one of our local track racers has a knee/elbow overlap; during a race he moved his elbow in reaction to another rider (or was bumped; was unclear from watching); his knee hit his elbow and his bike was pushed way off line from the hit.

Definitely not ideal, but I am not sure what a person with these types of body dimensions is to do about it.

I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.
What does a sloped top tube have to do with it?
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 09:36 PM   #85
BoSoxYacht
Banned
 
BoSoxYacht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: take your time, enjoy the scenery, it will be there when you get to it
Bikes: 07 IRO BFGB fixed-gear, 07 Pedal Force RS
Posts: 7,282
I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
What does a sloped top tube have to do with it?
is this a serious question?
BoSoxYacht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 09:46 PM   #86
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
What does a sloped top tube have to do with it?
Most manufacturers have used a sloped top tube to increase the head tube length. This make it challenging for me to fit to a frame, requiring me to choose between handlebar drop, reach, and bike handling (stem length). It took a while to get the bike right after my level top tube 2007 5.2 Madone was warrantee replaced with a sloped top tube 2013 4.7 Madone. I went from a size 58cm to a size 56, replaced the stock headset cap with a low profile (and slammed the stem), the 120mm stem with a 130, and moved the saddle forward a cm or so. It all worked out, but it took a while and some experimenting to get right.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 08-25-13 at 09:51 PM.
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 10:25 PM   #87
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
I believe, unless they've changed it, the actual measurement is not less than 50mm of setback from BB center to the forward most part of the saddle nose. IOW minimum saddle setback of 50mm.
...
If you have an anatomical exception, which most if not all of the pros you see on TV have, you can have the saddle nose even with the BB center.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 10:28 PM   #88
bigfred 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Posts: 3,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
If you have an anatomical exception, which most if not all of the pros you see on TV have, you can have the saddle nose even with the BB center.
Do you know the criteria for the anatomical exception? I thought there wasn't one, not even for TT'ing. Unlike the forward limit of the bars, which allows you the extra 5cm as long as your elbow angle does not exceed 120deg.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
bigfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 10:32 PM   #89
bigfred 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Posts: 3,834
Never mind. I found it. I would be surprised if it was any help to the long legged guys. Most of them will be Knee ahead of pedal spindle at 5cm of setback unless they're running really long cranks. Now I understand why it hadn't stuck in my head. It's a rule for the shorter riders. Just as the handlebar exception is there for the tall/long riders.

"The peak of the saddle shall be a minimum of 5 cm to the rear of a vertical plane passing through the bottom bracket spindle (1). This restriction shall not be applied to the bicycle ridden by a rider in a Flying 200 m, Flying Lap, Team Sprint, track sprint event, keirin, 500 metres or 1 kilometre time trials; however, in no circumstances shall the peak of the saddle extend in front of a vertical line passing through the bottom bracket spindle.

(1) The distances mentioned in footnote (1) to articles 1.3.013 and 1.3.016 above may be reduced where that is necessary for morphological reasons. By morphological reasons should be understood everything to do with the size and limb length of the rider.

Any rider who, for these reasons, considers that he needs to use a bicycle of lesser dimensions than those given shall inform the commissaires' panel to that effect when presenting his licence. In that case, the panel may conduct the following test. Using a plumb-line, they shall check to see whether, when pedalling, the point of the rider's knee when at its foremost position passes beyond a vertical line passing through the pedal spindle (see diagram «Measurements (2)»)."
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
bigfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 10:37 PM   #90
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
Do you know the criteria for the anatomical exception? I thought there wasn't one, not even for TT'ing. Unlike the forward limit of the bars, which allows you the extra 5cm as long as your elbow angle does not exceed 120deg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.slowtwitch.com
...

The rule provides for what's called a morphological exception, and if a rider is especially short, or has a short femur, he or she can apply to have the saddle moved forward of that spot.

How is such an application made, and how often is it granted? According to the rules, the riders are given a "test" by the commissaires prior to the race. You pedal the bike, and the forward protrusion of your knee cannot pass in front of the pedal axle. Of course, you simply ride on the rearward part of the saddle during the test. As one highly-placed federation technical director put, "Everyone who takes the test passes, and these people get to ride a position unavailable to the naive or unaware."

...

http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadin...tr/tt_fit.html
This is what I've found. It's about the knee position relative to the pedal axle. You get a morphological exception if you sit on the back of the saddle during the test.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-13, 10:40 PM   #91
bigfred 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NZ
Bikes: More than 1, but, less than S-1
Posts: 3,834
I need a longer saddle.
__________________
Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.
bigfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-13, 02:06 AM   #92
Ice41000
Senior Member
 
Ice41000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Check out Jens Voigt's position in the drops below.
Do you guys run this much arm/knee overlap in the drops?
Granted he is riding the rivet to open his hip angle a bit but seem like his handlebar is in awfully close.
Who is to quibble with a top pro but what do you guys think?
I am pretty sure he knows what he is doing.
Ice41000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-13, 05:51 AM   #93
Campag4life
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 10,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice41000 View Post
I am pretty sure he knows what he is doing.
Actually Jens was pretty deflated by this thread until he read Pcad's endorsement. Now he has renewed confidence his position is OK.
Campag4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-13, 06:16 AM   #94
halfspeed
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Bikes: are better than yours.
Posts: 12,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoSoxYacht View Post
I have the opposite problem. My legs are short relative to my body which forces me to larger frame sizes and makes it difficult to get the bars low enough depending on the brand of frame. This new trend of sloped top tubes has not made it better.

is this a serious question?
Yes. Since a sloped top tube, in and of itself, has nothing to do with reach and I don't have relatively short legs.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-13, 06:19 AM   #95
halfspeed
Senior Member
 
halfspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE Minnesota
Bikes: are better than yours.
Posts: 12,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
Most manufacturers have used a sloped top tube to increase the head tube length. This make it challenging for me to fit to a frame, requiring me to choose between handlebar drop, reach, and bike handling (stem length). It took a while to get the bike right after my level top tube 2007 5.2 Madone was warrantee replaced with a sloped top tube 2013 4.7 Madone. I went from a size 58cm to a size 56, replaced the stock headset cap with a low profile (and slammed the stem), the 120mm stem with a 130, and moved the saddle forward a cm or so. It all worked out, but it took a while and some experimenting to get right.
I guess I had noticed that more frames are starting to look like sensible geometry for me. I hadn't thought about what that means for you.
__________________
Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.
halfspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-13, 02:02 PM   #96
therhodeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Tulsa OK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
The idiocy here is infinite, like the cosmos itself.

If that observation lowers your bar, look inward young Fredling.
You're dealing with the yoda of fredlings there.
therhodeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-13, 03:00 AM   #97
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bike Business!!!
Bikes: Cannondale Super Six High Mod, Evo, Sram Red, CAAD9 Rival
Posts: 10,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
Actually Jens was pretty deflated by this thread until he read Pcad's endorsement. Now he has renewed confidence his position is OK.
Lol.
roadwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-13, 03:03 AM   #98
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Bike Business!!!
Bikes: Cannondale Super Six High Mod, Evo, Sram Red, CAAD9 Rival
Posts: 10,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
The idiocy here is infinite, like the cosmos itself.

If that observation lowers your bar, look inward young Fredling.
I chuckle about a fit comment from a rider who will take his bike to the shop to get a flat fixed.
roadwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-13, 04:05 AM   #99
patentcad
Peloton Dog
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2013 Scott Foil, 2014 Scott Addict, 2008 Cervelo P3 (TT), 2015 Scott Scale 700SL MTB
Posts: 59,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
I chuckle about a fit comment from a rider who will take his bike to the shop to get a flat fixed.
I don't know what you're talking about here, but then, that makes two of us.
patentcad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-13, 04:17 AM   #100
patentcad
Peloton Dog
 
patentcad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Chester, NY
Bikes: 2013 Scott Foil, 2014 Scott Addict, 2008 Cervelo P3 (TT), 2015 Scott Scale 700SL MTB
Posts: 59,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by patentcad View Post
I don't know what you're talking about here, but then, that makes two of us.
It's like he's in his very own class of Arrogant Idiot.
patentcad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:05 PM.