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Thread: aero or no aero

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai Winters View Post
    Why do you want or think you need an aero or non aero frame?
    As I have stated, I mostly ride alone, so I was hoping to reduce some drag with an aero frame.

    What benefits do you hope to reap with such a frame?
    drag reduction = more speed

    What are your average speeds for these rides...especially rides that are started to achieve the fastest time, etc.
    My average speeds over the course of a ride are 16-17 mph, 20-22 mph on some segments.

    Do you have the kit that is also aero?
    No

    Is your position on the bike optimal for the benefits of an aero frame?
    If I were to get an aero bike, I was also planning to have a professional fitting done.

    Is your fitness level up to the benefits of an aero frame?
    No at the moment but I am working on it.

    The money difference between the bikes is about $300, so it's no big deal. It's just that I am not sure how much harsher the ride would be over the course of 30-40 miles. The salesperson I spoke with told me if I was riding 30-40, then I shouldn't have any problems with the aero feeling less comfortable. He suggested the Wilier only if I was gonna do centuries, etc.

    Thanks

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Actually you counterdict yourself with your last comment. Ever ride a S5? Its STIFF. Venge? Slighty more forgiving but still STIFF. Why are there so many Venges on ebay? Because they ride like a cattle truck and most don't want to live with them day in an day out for 6W save over speeds of 25mph where most don't ride that don't ride bikes for living. There are tradeoffs with aero bikes as Robert pointed out. Drag really doesn't start to matter much above 20mph and its most dominated by riding position and not frame shape. As Roberts stated there is a reason why ALL frames aren't made with aero intent. Same applies to road wheels for example...Deep V wheels are radially STIFF. So you can spend a whole lot more for an uber stiff bike will questionable return...and most of that return will be a bone jarring ride.
    PS: I would say 95% on this forum don't know why an aero frame is vertically less compliant or weighs more than a comparable non aero racing frame e.g. Venge versus Tarmac.

    There are contradictions to every rule. You can quote one of the stiffest bikes around if you wish. I don't think the Foil mentioned falls into that category, it is a great riding bike.

    I've only ridden an S2. Was in love with the look but it quickly deflated after riding it. It was in general subtly different from my Madone. Had I purchased it, I surely would have enjoyed it, but with so many other options, I went with something else. Granted it was just a test ride, but it wasn't as jaw droppingly different as you might be lead to believe reading online reviews. The subtle differences we discuss here become more apparent the longer we ride but for newer riders most bikes feel pretty much the same IMO. With the hand wringing over aero being discussed by the OP, my guess is not much of it is going to matter to him. Forget all the stuff you've read about them, ride them both, pick the one you like best and be happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petermk View Post
    If I were to get an aero bike, I was also planning to have a professional fitting done.
    The question about your position on the bike did not relate to normal fit, but rather aero positioning. Are you using aero bars, flattening yourself out completely, etc? If your body is a sail, what is the point of the aero frame? As I said, trying to get speed help from an aero frame before you get all the help that you can from positioning, special clothing, etc. doesn't make sense to me. The frame is the smallest part of it.

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    on the Neil Pryde overview page...

    http://www.neilprydebikes.com/bikes/overview.html

    they rate their aero road bike - the Alize - as being _more_ comfortable than their all around road bike - the Diablo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Are you using aero bars, flattening yourself out completely, etc? If your body is a sail, what is the point of the aero frame?
    No, I am not using aero bars, nor am I planning to. I do flatten myself on 25+ mph descents

  6. #31
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    The answer is really easy....ride both, pick the one that speaks to you the most.


    If you really want to go aero, you really need to be looking at aero bars...IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    The question about your position on the bike did not relate to normal fit, but rather aero positioning. Are you using aero bars, flattening yourself out completely, etc? If your body is a sail, what is the point of the aero frame? As I said, trying to get speed help from an aero frame before you get all the help that you can from positioning, special clothing, etc. doesn't make sense to me. The frame is the smallest part of it.
    The aero frame surely makes less difference than other measures but still if it's a bit less drag either way it all depends on the trade-off if any, on comfort, weight, price or other considerations. It's still a good question IMO: aero frame or not.

    BUT, wind-tunnel tests notwithstanding it's not completely convincing that that the small bit of difference in drag is non-zero in practical use. In varying wind conditions, road surfaces, rider position and messy handling. I've ridden an (unconventional) aero bike with about a third reduction in drag, bike plus rider, and the difference is huge. A fraction of a percent from the frame or even components, I suspect is hyped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    An aero road frame might save you 90 seconds on a 24 mile (40k) TT @ 30mph.
    Right, but if you're slower than 30 mph you'll save more time than that.

  9. #34
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    Sounds as if the OP mainly rides solo, and no mention of racing or TT. If so, I think aero-ness would be down the list of priorities. In a noncompetitive environment, why would doing a ride in 3 hours compared to 3 hours and 1 minutes be worth any tradeoffs ? I suppose if there are no "cons" to the aero frame, then go for it.
    Last edited by Homebrew01; 08-25-13 at 10:33 AM.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermk View Post
    As I have stated, I mostly ride alone, so I was hoping to reduce some drag with an aero frame.



    drag reduction = more speed



    My average speeds over the course of a ride are 16-17 mph, 20-22 mph on some segments.



    No



    If I were to get an aero bike, I was also planning to have a professional fitting done.



    No at the moment but I am working on it.

    The money difference between the bikes is about $300, so it's no big deal. It's just that I am not sure how much harsher the ride would be over the course of 30-40 miles. The salesperson I spoke with told me if I was riding 30-40, then I shouldn't have any problems with the aero feeling less comfortable. He suggested the Wilier only if I was gonna do centuries, etc.

    Thanks
    As mentioned, if you can be seated very low without pains in genital area, neck, shoulders etc etc for hours maybe you do have means for it.
    The tube shapes of most aero bikes and the over all stiffness makes them harsher. These bikes are not built for comfort. They are built to cut time that does not matter if we don't aim to win a race. If you would test ride i am sure you would be so excited you probably didn't notice.
    But when you get stronger and ride more, there is a big risk you would be better off with a bike built for some compliance. I think as most people say, the body of the rider is way more acting like a sail (or brake) than the bikes will ever do. If you will find a bike that let you sit very well and with comfort push your all, you might be better off. If you ride like a maniac for hours and notice that the bike does cause some issues, you will have more problems to overcome this than your own limit. The contact points like saddle and handlebars height and how you sense the bike reacts. A bike that do transfer to much road feedback (vibrations and generally stiff) become more brutal for your body. It is what i did find out. but this is your journey. Just have it in mind. Ride well and hopefully feel well while doing so
    Last edited by Avispa; 08-25-13 at 09:38 AM.

  11. #36
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    My first rate LBS says they're selling more Cervelo S5s than R3s now. But my impression is that the Tour riders prefer the R5s (non aero).

    I understand the OP's desire to go faster even if not racing. But I'd be careful not to trade too much comfort.

  12. #37
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    I don't think the OP rides enough to notice much difference. Should pick whatever bike fits and looks nice and avoid all other handwringing.
    By the time you're experienced enough to get something germane out of a test ride, you won't need a test ride.

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    You could get a 2014 Cervelo R3. Likely more comfortable and at least as aero as the Scott Foil.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Sounds as if the OP mainly rides solo, and no mention of racing or TT. If so, I think aero-ness would be down the list of priorities. In a noncompetitive environment, why would doing a ride in 3 hours compared to 3 hours and 1 minutes be worth any tradeoffs ? I suppose if there are no "cons" to the aero frame, then go for it.
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    Personally, I'd buy the bike that you liked the ride of best. Never ridden a foil, so I can't comment on the ride, but there can be some trade off in ride quality on many aero frames.

    Not racing, over time, I think you'll find ride quality much more important a few theoretical seconds on a strava segment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
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    Thanks, everyone, for your input. I went to a bunch of bike shops today and decided to get the Wilier. The only shop that had the Foil 20, didn't have it my size anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Personally, I'd buy the bike that you liked the ride of best. Never ridden a foil, so I can't comment on the ride, but there can be some trade off in ride quality on many aero frames.

    Not racing, over time, I think you'll find ride quality much more important a few theoretical seconds on a strava segment.
    Would say this is true for the vast majority of us. And then there is choosing a bike that suits the handling you like. And then the weight. Many prefer a Tarmac to a Venge because of ride quality and climbing ability because a Tarmac is lighter. And then there is fit. Aero bikes tend to be a more aggressive fit which doesn't suit many riders.
    And I think how you ride matters a fair amount as you mention Merlin..with what kind of riders...do you ride competitively etc. Today I was out riding and passed by five guys on TT bikes. I was curious who fast they rode and latched on to the back of the group. 23 mph average I would say...sometimes faster, sometimes slower. A guy on a roadbike...even my Roubaix...clearly not an aero bike....in the drops can hold the draft of a tri group generally provided they aren't special riders. In a draft, aero effects are even less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by petermk View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for your input. I went to a bunch of bike shops today and decided to get the Wilier.
    Good luck with your choice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Would say this is true for the vast majority of us. And then there is choosing a bike that suits the handling you like. And then the weight. Many prefer a Tarmac to a Venge because of ride quality and climbing ability because a Tarmac is lighter. And then there is fit. Aero bikes tend to be a more aggressive fit which doesn't suit many riders.
    And I think how you ride matters a fair amount...with what kind of riders...do you ride competitively etc. Today I was out riding and passed by five guys on TT bikes. I was curious who fast they rode and latched on to the back of the group. 23 mph average I would say...sometimes faster, sometimes slower. A guy on a roadbike...even my Roubaix...clearly not an aero bike....in the drops can hold the draft of a tri group generally provided they aren't special riders. In a draft, aero effects are even less.
    I disagree with that last statement. My AR5 with 58mm rims was insane in a draft. I barely had to do any work at all. I found myself scrubbing speed very often so I wouldnt overlap the wheel infornt of me. Once we got going downhill forget it, I would have to pull out of line every time and often pass people in front of me while I coasted. I have the same wheels on my Tarmac and all of that happens much less now.
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    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c_mack9 View Post
    I disagree with that last statement. My AR5 with 58mm rims was insane in a draft. I barely had to do any work at all. I found myself scrubbing speed very often so I wouldnt overlap the wheel infornt of me. Once we got going downhill forget it, I would have to pull out of line every time and often pass people in front of me while I coasted. I have the same wheels on my Tarmac and all of that happens much less now.

    I am sorry if I find what you write slightly hard to believe. The savings of an aero bike versus a bike like a Tarmac that is raced and won in the pro peloton with same rider position 'maybe' 7w at 30kph. In a draft, I bet it is less because of less air mass.
    Again, just my opinion.

    Below are some general watt nos. from the web relative to road bike versus TT bike for some perspective on watt output at 28mph. The modest watt savings of tapered tubes on an aero bike is by far the smallest contributor to overall drag and amount of saving is minor to typical watt expenditure when riding at a speed where aero dynamics matters:

    Watts as a function of rider position:

    Required output to maintain 45 kph (28 mph) on a:

    Standard road bike, hands on hoods = 465 Watts
    Same bike, hands down on the drops = 406 watts
    Same bike with aero bars = 369 Watts
    Same bike, triathlon position (5.5 cm lower bar, saddle forwards)= 360 Watts
    Same bike, as above, with 2 tri spoke wheels = 345 Watts
    Cervelo TT bike with 2 tri spoke wheels = 328 Watts
    Cervelo TT bike with tri spoke front & disk rear = 320 Watts
    Cervelo TT bike, tri spoke front & disk rear + aero helmet = 317 Watts
    Cervelo TT bike, same as above + skin suit = 307 Watts
    Cervelo TT bike, same as above, with saddle pushed back 3cm = 293 Watts

    From 465 to 293 watts!! That's obviously a reduction of 172 Watts just from aero stuff!!
    Last edited by Campag4life; 08-25-13 at 05:04 PM.

  22. #47
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    I am sorry if I find what you write slightly hard to believe....
    I think he's objecting to the claim that aerodynamic benefits of a frame (or wheels etc) are reduced if you are drafting.

    I haven't seen any research on the topic, but I believe Cervelo claims that you maintain those benefits even when drafting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Actually you counterdict yourself with your last comment. Ever ride a S5? Its STIFF. Venge? Slighty more forgiving but still STIFF. Why are there so many Venges on ebay? Because they ride like a cattle truck and most don't want to live with them day in an day out for 6W save over speeds of 25mph where most don't ride that don't ride bikes for living. There are tradeoffs with aero bikes as Robert pointed out. Drag really doesn't start to matter much above 20mph and its most dominated by riding position and not frame shape. As Roberts stated there is a reason why ALL frames aren't made with aero intent. Same applies to road wheels for example...Deep V wheels are radially STIFF. So you can spend a whole lot more for an uber stiff bike will questionable return...and most of that return will be a bone jarring ride.
    PS: I would say 95% on this forum don't know why an aero frame is vertically less compliant or weighs more than a comparable non aero racing frame e.g. Venge versus Tarmac.

    Wow, I know a few people who have the s5 and all of them say it flexes, big time.
    Giants measurements show the s5 to be the less stiff out of all the aero bikes.

  24. #49
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermk View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for your input. I went to a bunch of bike shops today and decided to get the Wilier. The only shop that had the Foil 20, didn't have it my size anyway.
    Congrats! A lot can be said from this actually. Most people need to account for things like lbs stock/inventory, frame colors etc. I think you would have been happy with either. I do highly recommend a pro fit though. Enjoy the bike!

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    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1lee View Post
    Wow, I know a few people who have the s5 and all of them say it flexes, big time.
    Giants measurements show the s5 to be the less stiff out of all the aero bikes.
    What you write disagrees with the heads up review below which said the Venge had more friendly ride quality:

    http://bicyclesportshop.wordpress.co...vs-cervelo-s5/

    But that isn't saying much. The Venge's ride is still very stiff.
    Suffice to say both bikes are about speed and not ride quality so if riding real fast isn't the highest priority many are happier with other offerings from the same manufacturer...like the Tarmac or R3. The new R5 is reviewed to be one hell of a bike and love the clean design.

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