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Thread: aero or no aero

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I think he's objecting to the claim that aerodynamic benefits of a frame (or wheels etc) are reduced if you are drafting.
    Here is a link to the Cervelo white paper. It shows that, at the same speed, aero benefits are reduced when drafting just as you would suspect (due to reduced aerodynamic drag.) At 35kph you go from saving 18W on the S5 to saving 13W at the same speed when drafting compared to a "typical road bike" (whatever that means.) The results show very clearly that aerodynamic power savings are reduced when drafting. However, at/below 30kmh/18mph the difference shrinks considerably.

    http://www.cervelo.com/media/docs/Ce...cddcd4f6-0.pdf
    Last edited by Dunbar; 08-26-13 at 11:26 AM.

  2. #52
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Here is a link to the Cervelo white paper....
    I have seen that paper, but I haven't read the source of the claim. It's apparently a cycling book from 2002.

  3. #53
    Senior Member chiefDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Unless you have had a chance to actually ride one of these bikes, perhaps you should suspend your judgement about harshness. I cannot speak to the S1, the Venge or the Foil, but the S5 is not a harsh ride at all. I had concerns about the fact that it only takes 23mm tires (25 will not fit), but after about a month and a half of riding, I have no comfort complaints at all. It is not as compliant as the R3, but then again I am not taking my S5 on Paris-Roubaix type rides. On tarmac, even with rough sections, the S5 is perfectly comfortable - perhaps surprisingly comfortable.

    From my POV, aero road bikes are slightly more heavy, perhaps a bit more stiff (vs compliant) than an endurance bike that is more comfort oriented, and a bit more expensive (when one buys a bike one pays for R and D as well as materials, wind tunnel time costs money). All of these differences are pretty modest, so at the end of the day, I would go for the one that puts the biggest smile on your face during a test ride.
    This.
    OP if you are not racing, it does not matter. Test ride what you like and whatever feels best, and makes you happy, buy. Bring your own wheels so you are testing the frame, and not the OEM wheels. Get the fit close too and ride them back to back. Enjoy yourself, and bring a friend!

    I have a very comfy cervelo R3 and an SW venge and can tell you that a venge is not super harsh. IME (test rode several S5s) the venge is less harsh and sprints better then an S5. I love the venge in crits, esp with good pavement (see the driveway in Austin Texas).

    BLUFF test ride what looks good, and buy what you enjoy and if it makes you happy and keeps you on the bike having fun, buy whatever makes you happy. Good luck man!
    Dave

  4. #54
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefDave View Post
    This.
    OP if you are not racing, it does not matter. Test ride what you like and whatever feels best, and makes you happy, buy. Bring your own wheels so you are testing the frame, and not the OEM wheels. Get the fit close too and ride them back to back. Enjoy yourself, and bring a friend!

    I have a very comfy cervelo R3 and an SW venge and can tell you that a venge is not super harsh. IME (test rode several S5s) the venge is less harsh and sprints better then an S5. I love the venge in crits, esp with good pavement (see the driveway in Austin Texas).

    BLUFF test ride what looks good, and buy what you enjoy and if it makes you happy and keeps you on the bike having fun, buy whatever makes you happy. Good luck man!
    Dave
    Nice combo Dave. Do you have the same 3pt triangle, saddle, bars, BB on both bikes or have your Venge set up more aggressive?

  5. #55
    Senior Member chiefDave's Avatar
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    Campy,
    very close set ups. R3 has higher HT by about 1 cm while both bikes are 56 w/ 100, 6 degree stems flipped and slamed. Same toupe saddles (SW on venge, pro on R3, both 130) same set back, height ect... Both '12 RED pre yaw, speed play zeros. R3 has zip service corse tape, venge double wrap censelli (sp?) tape, which I love!!! Cork is grippy, and soft. Both 175 cranks, SW crank w/ areo rotor 53/39 and R3 has a rotor 3D+ w/ 50/36 regular qrings. Venge has a new quarg and rides enve 45cc and mich pro 4 service course and R3 is on DA C24, and 4000s. Both bikes on race lite latex tubes.
    Bluff venge is a bit more aggressive (1cm drop) but not too much. Maybe next year will try a 110 stem... Thanks!
    Last edited by chiefDave; 08-26-13 at 08:30 PM. Reason: typo

  6. #56
    Senior Member I <3 Robots's Avatar
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    I like your taste in bikes and parts.
    Cervelo S2 | Zipp | SRAM | Rotor

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermk View Post
    As I have stated, I mostly ride alone, so I was hoping to reduce some drag with an aero frame.



    drag reduction = more speed
    Correct, but the speed increase overall is slight.



    My average speeds over the course of a ride are 16-17 mph, 20-22 mph on some segments.
    I'm not insulting your speeds: These are slow speeds to see much if any of a benefit for an "aero" bike. I'm not fast but my best TT for a 40K was an average of 28.5mph with a Colnago road frame, Zipp solid disk rear, 20 spoke front, full tear drop helmet, aero bars and trained for it for 6 months...best I achieved was third place in the New England Regional TT in the Masters 35 class. I did see a difference with the full kit but not something I'd want to do on an everyday basis.



    No



    If I were to get an aero bike, I was also planning to have a professional fitting done.
    This is a great idea but I'd rather have the pro fitting for a standard road bike position. It is going to be different from a full aero position which is not a lot of fun to ride in all the time.



    No at the moment but I am working on it.

    The money difference between the bikes is about $300, so it's no big deal. It's just that I am not sure how much harsher the ride would be over the course of 30-40 miles. The salesperson I spoke with told me if I was riding 30-40, then I shouldn't have any problems with the aero feeling less comfortable. He suggested the Wilier only if I was gonna do centuries, etc.
    I agree regarding the money difference not being that big a deal. My concern is the overall ride of a standard road bike versus an "aero" designed bike.
    In my opinion you would get much more value and a much better ride experience with the Wilier or a quality standard road frame. To achieve less drag and faster times a quality fitting will make a huge difference. Additionally putting together a training program that becomes part of your regular riding regimen will increase your speed by improving your physical and mental strength as well as your lung capabilities. Add a quality saddle that will allow a comfortable aero position and some good TT bars to your bike and you will be surprised at the overall and average speeds over some time to train.


    Thanks
    Enjoy the bike and tell us how it all works out regarding the buying experience, fitting, training, etc.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai Winters View Post
    I'm not insulting your speeds: These are slow speeds to see much if any of a benefit for an "aero" bike.
    Hey I am just a weekend warrior, so I do know that I am slow The only "racing" that I'll most likely ever be doing is against my own and others Strava times.

    Enjoy the bike and tell us how it all works out regarding the buying experience, fitting, training, etc.
    Thanks. I only got measured at the store (R&A Cycles in Park Slope, Brooklyn NY), so they could get the correct bike size. I've been riding a size 54 but now it appears that 56 is the correct size for me. I think I am also gonna have a pro fitting done at my LBS.

  9. #59
    Senior Member mpath's Avatar
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    No one's really said much about the Wilier. The GT is more of an endurance bike, with a taller head tube for comfort. OP, is the GT spec'd with FULL Ultegra now? When they first came out a couple of years back, they kind of dummed it down with an Ultegra/FSA mix.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefDave View Post
    OP if you are not racing, it does not matter.
    This statement continues to get me. Why do people keep saying it here? If you want speed, it doesn't matter whether you race or not.

    I do race (or did until a couple years ago) and some of my most competitive memories involve Saturday morning sprints against my training ride buddies. I don't doubt an aero frame and aero wheels didn't make a difference in the outcomes, race or training.
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpath View Post
    No one's really said much about the Wilier. The GT is more of an endurance bike, with a taller head tube for comfort. OP, is the GT spec'd with FULL Ultegra now? When they first came out a couple of years back, they kind of dummed it down with an Ultegra/FSA mix.
    No, it's an Ultegra/FSA/105 mix. The brake calipers and crankset are Wilier-branded FSA. The cassette is 105. The rest is Ultegra.
    Last edited by petermk; 08-27-13 at 08:31 AM.

  12. #62
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
    This statement continues to get me. Why do people keep saying it here? If you want speed, it doesn't matter whether you race or not.

    I do race (or did until a couple years ago) and some of my most competitive memories involve Saturday morning sprints against my training ride buddies. I don't doubt an aero frame and aero wheels didn't make a difference in the outcomes, race or training.
    I agree with that. My view is if you have a late model sub 20 lb carbon road bike, the small bit of aerodynamic advantage isn't very material. Lots of pro bikes raced with classical tubing shapes also and these are elite riders. Also rider position is key and vastly trumps frame tubing shaping.

  13. #63
    Senior Member chiefDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I <3 Robots View Post
    I like your taste in bikes and parts.
    Thanks man!

  14. #64
    Senior Member chiefDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
    This statement continues to get me. Why do people keep saying it here? If you want speed, it doesn't matter whether you race or not.

    I do race (or did until a couple years ago) and some of my most competitive memories involve Saturday morning sprints against my training ride buddies. I don't doubt an aero frame and aero wheels didn't make a difference in the outcomes, race or training.
    The OP is mostly solo, and does not race. A race involves timing or competitors. If the OP only measure is speed, a tailwind or fresh legs would impact the measure of speed more than a new frame. It does not matter. What matters is what the op feels and enjoys to ride. Buy what you like, enjoy the new bike and ride more. No worries and good luck.

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