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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    This is where the disconnect is, in both this thread, and your other thread.

    It doesn't comport with common experience, that with 105 calipers, and Swiss stop pads, you can't lock up even your back wheel at 10mph in dry conditions.

    Something other than the type of brake (caliper) is going on here.
    Yup, something ain't right. My dad (engineer and bike nut) is coming down tomorrow to have a look see. After that I've exhausted all options and it's time to choose a replacement... still not sure what to go for but based on dnuzzomueller's experience above I'm thinking mini-V might be a poor option. Maybe I should just pony up for a cx fork and BB7 disk brake...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    This is where the disconnect is, in both this thread, and your other thread.

    It doesn't comport with common experience, that with 105 calipers, and Swiss stop pads, you can't lock up even your back wheel at 10mph in dry conditions.

    Something other than the type of brake (caliper) is going on here.
    Yup, something ain't right. My dad (engineer and bike nut) is coming down tomorrow to have a look see. After that I've exhausted all options and it's time to choose a replacement... still not sure what to go for but based on dnuzzomueller's experience above I'm thinking mini-V might be a poor option. Maybe I should just pony up for a cx fork and BB7 disk brake...

  3. #28
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikedoofus View Post
    Yup, something ain't right. My dad (engineer and bike nut) is coming down tomorrow to have a look see.
    And to be clear: Did "exhaust all options" include "taking it to a LBS" ?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    And to be clear: Did "exhaust all options" include "taking it to a LBS" ?
    Nope. I'd trust my old man over any LBS mechanic any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Only times I've taken stuff in to LBS they've managed to sell me stuff in the process of failing to find a problem, then my dad's managed to fix it.

    I have spoken to a couple of LBS about it but got nothing more than suggestions to change the pads or upgrade to dura ace callipers. Not exactly rocket surgery. The new pads have so far not been a great investment and I'm far from convinced that upgrading to dura ace or any other alternative callipers would change much at all.
    Last edited by bikedoofus; 09-20-13 at 09:05 AM.

  5. #30
    John Wayne Toilet Paper nhluhr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    A: The angle of pad contact does matter, the way you have drawn the end points as the pads means that the force is being directed in a 45 degree angle in the case of the V brake and I am venturing to guess about 20-30 degrees with your caliper brake. Your diagrams actually prove that the force is going to be less well directed in the case of V brake. I am not awake enough to argue about Newtonian Mechanics and Linear Algebra. Please go read this and I will get back to you after that.
    The arrogance of this post is stifling.

    http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
    http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

    As for the OP's question - I go back and forth from road calipers (Dura Ace 7900 and 105 5700) and Mini-V Brakes on a regular basis since my winter/rain bike has TRP CX9 Mini Vs. The CX9 mini-v absolutely unquestionably have more mechanical advantage than the caliper brakes, as there is always a few stops during the switch where I have to re-learn the amount of force required for a given amount of braking. However, as many have mentioned, the modulation is not as good. In the winter, when it's wet ALWAYS here, that doesn't really matter as the huge drop-off in pad-rim friction means I need more power for a given situation and that reasonably balances the modulation issue.

    The main issue in the wet is the near total lack of stopping power (with any rim brake) that you can experience in the first moments of a braking effort. That's a problem for panic/emergency stops. I notice that the braking power ramps up as the rim gets swept dry. I think the most effective way to use rim brakes in the wet is to be proactive about 'wiping' the rims dry - periodically applying light pressure to clear off the rims so they are more ready when you need them.

    If you're truly concerned with wet braking performance, you'll never be truly happy until you go to a front disc and caliper, as the real problem with wet braking is always going to be the pad-rim interface.
    Last edited by nhluhr; 09-20-13 at 09:15 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    This is where the disconnect is, in both this thread, and your other thread.

    It doesn't comport with common experience, that with 105 calipers, and Swiss stop pads, you can't lock up even your back wheel at 10mph in dry conditions.

    Something other than the type of brake (caliper) is going on here.
    +1

    The OP's experience doesn't mesh with the majority of others' experiences.

    If you can't lock a rear tire on dry pavement or flip over the bars if it's a front brake then something is dramatically wrong. Flex is an issue with cantilevers - just squeeze brakes on a showroom floor and watch the stays bow out - but such flex only comes into play at a force much higher than necessary to lock a tire in the dry at 10 mph.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    +1

    The OP's experience doesn't mesh with the majority of others' experiences.

    If you can't lock a rear tire on dry pavement or flip over the bars if it's a front brake then something is dramatically wrong. Flex is an issue with cantilevers - just squeeze brakes on a showroom floor and watch the stays bow out - but such flex only comes into play at a force much higher than necessary to lock a tire in the dry at 10 mph.
    I'm convinced! Doing a complete disassembly tomorrow.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikedoofus View Post
    Thank you for your answer but I am confused - you say you can't tell the difference between them but the TRP is as good if not better. What do you mean?
    They are very close. The pads that the TRP CX8.4 came with are a bit more aggressive and have more initial bite.
    I switched from Textro cantilevers to TRP CX8.4 on my commuter because I have to go down two steep grades on my way to work and I hated the lack of feel/power on the cantilevers.
    If you have a bike equipped with canti-s, in my mind, switching to TRP CX series is a no brainer. Although they recommend to use the CX9 with Shimano Ultegra/Dura-Ace levers, I went with the CX8.4 since they have a bit less mechanical advantage and hence more modulation. You can call TRP and talk to them about what's right for you. And really, don't listen to some of the people on this thread that are basing their opinions on a bike ride they did in the 1950s ;-)

    So, in summary, TRP CX8.4 is equal for me the the brakes on my Roubaix SL2. TRP CX.9 has more power but less modulation. If you are riding in the wet, I would use Kool Stop Salmon or dual compound pads.
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  9. #34
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    Also try all-weather pads like koolstop salmons

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikedoofus View Post
    I weigh 100kg and ride in the wet often (I like it - I'm strange like that). I use 105 calipers which I've adjusted ad-nauseum. I'm currently trying koolstop salmon pads which don't seem to help a great deal though I shall keep trying.

    Currently braking is very poor in the wet - on a good incline in the wet if I exceed 30mph then I literally cannot stop, though I can reign in speed back down to 30mph normally. This is obviously rather dangerous.
    Something is wrong with your equipment and it's not the calipers or brake pads.

    What sort of surface treatment do your rims have? Some rims are hard-anodized a contemporary color (black) but don't have machined brake tracks to go with that so braking is inefficient until you wear through the coating.

    My wife and I once bought matching "comfort" bikes which had "brake modulator" spring assemblies in the front cable which made it impossible for inexperienced riders to send themselves over the handlebars and the rest of us to stop on steep hills. In a sane world no manufacturer would be that stupid, although our world is litigious not sane.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 09-21-13 at 12:56 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Mini V brakes are not going to be an upgrade over good dual pivot calipers. V brakes require a Travel Agent or similar device because of longer cable pull to work with road bike levers You can get V brakes that have cable pull compatible with road levers, but they don't brake as well .
    I disagree. I'm using 6800 levers with Tektro 926 v brakes. These have an 80mm arm. The stopping is AWESOME and there are no clearance issues. If I could convert all my road brakes I would.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fstshrk View Post

    So, in summary, TRP CX8.4 is equal for me the the brakes on my Roubaix SL2. TRP CX.9 has more power but less modulation. If you are riding in the wet, I would use Kool Stop Salmon or dual compound pads.
    If you need to pull more cable on the 90mm arms to move the same distance as with the 85mm arms, wouldn't that mean there is MORE modulation with the 90mm?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
    I disagree. I'm using 6800 levers with Tektro 926 v brakes. These have an 80mm arm. The stopping is AWESOME and there are no clearance issues. If I could convert all my road brakes I would.
    Did you go from callipers to the 926?

  14. #39
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    I have calipers on my other road bike. This road bike was built on a cyclocross frame. Same wheelset though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    Something is wrong with your equipment and it's not the calipers or brake pads.

    What sort of surface treatment do your rims have? Some rims are hard-anodized a contemporary color (black) but don't have machined brake tracks to go with that so braking is inefficient until you wear through the coating.
    I too suspect something is just not right if other people weighing 100kg are able to lock both wheels at high speed in very wet conditions with 105 callipers.

    No rim treatment, just aluminium. The rest of the rims are annodized black but the braking surface is machined flat with two wear-indicator groves. I've scrubbed it good and proper with strong detergent, rinsed with fresh water, then rubbed with alcohol. I've also checked brifters and cables.

    I've made some improvements by angling my brifters a little further down and preloading the levers slightly, but the difference is again marginal and the clearance I now have for wheels coming out of true on a ride is less than I'd like.

  16. #41
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    I only read a few messages here so I don't know if this was mentioned. I know you can replace cables and housing but there's one detail. You may have to replace the noodles as well. One trick I read here, you can take out the plastic thing inside the noodle, pass the cable through the noodle then slip on the plastic thing over the cable. That way you won't ruin the plastic thing inside when you pass the cable through the noodle. I mean you can push your cable against that piece of plastic to push it out before inserting the cable inside the noodle.
    Feeling Good by David Burns

  17. #42
    Senior Member abstractform20's Avatar
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    OP,

    check the cables and housing. make sure everything is seated correctly. if you pull on the brake housing, with the lever in its resting position (ie not squeezed), there should be no play. also, what is the distance from the brake pads to the rim?

    pics please, pics.

    pics of the rims surface, brake pad surface, brake pad to rim distance, and length/routing of housing. also, i assume the cable is clamped down tight in the caliper?

    as others have stated, something isnt right about your claim.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikedoofus View Post
    I too suspect something is just not right if other people weighing 100kg are able to lock both wheels at high speed in very wet conditions with 105 callipers.
    Locking the wheels actually has very little to do with dry vs wet. In the wet the tire has less traction so its also easier to lock.

  19. #44
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    I can lock my calipers*, canti-levers, v-brakes, and disc brakes. For modulation though, disc rules (even on 23c tires).

    *This is on old 1055 series 105 calipers from the 90s, 6600 ultegras, and tektros.

    There's something wrong with your setup if you can't lock them up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nhluhr View Post
    Mmmmmm I must hang out in the 33 too much. Your linking to the Sheldon Brown Cantilever page doesn't exactly prove any points. I understand the difference between them, it is merely a point that cantilever type mounts have more going on then just mechanical advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by bikedoofus View Post
    No dig intended, my apologies.

    My current brakes are not capable of locking either wheel, wet or dry, above about 10mph. Modulation is simply not an issue when the only way you can control your speed it to use every ounce of hand strength to haul the levers as tight as you can and end up with aching hands at the end of the ride. At very low speed in the wet I can JUST lock the back wheel. Out of interest, how much do you weigh?
    Although I know that alot of the questions have been discussed more in depth sicne you wrote this:

    I weigh about 78 kg. Now I will admit that you are a decent amount bigger then me. That being said as others have been discussing it sounds more like some type of set-up problem. I would venture to ask this: Are your brakes and levers matched? I know that Shimano changed the pull ratio of them when they went to hidden routing, I also have experienced a very weird braking profile when I used SRAM levers with other Shimano calipers (Those felt more like using a V brake, braking was more difficult to modulate and had a very sudden, jerky, stop)

    Another thing is that while people mention it: contaminated housing? When you say you get to the point of your hands hurting when you squeeze the brakes have you squeezed the levers all the way to the bars at that point? If not then definitely try replacing cables and housing. One thing I have seen on bikes where water is able to get trapped in a housing line is that the cable rusts and ends up making the whole system feel horrible. The other thing that could happen is that you could have a non-seated ferrule. If the end-point of your housing isn't seated against the shifter then you will definitely get crap braking performance.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Fiery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
    If you need to pull more cable on the 90mm arms to move the same distance as with the 85mm arms, wouldn't that mean there is MORE modulation with the 90mm?
    Longer brake arms mean more mechanical advantage, which means less tactile feedback at the brake lever which in turns gives the on/off hard to modulate feel for most people. The difference in lever position between barely touching the rim and locking up the wheel is indeed larger, but the difference in force exerted by the hand is smaller with the longer brake arms.

  22. #47
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    Makes sense.

  23. #48
    ka maté ka maté ka ora pdedes's Avatar
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    All modern caliper brakes have the potential to send you over the bars. I'm betting operator error. Squeeze the **** out of those levers. In the rain, squeeze twice, once to clear water from the braking surface and again to modulate speed.
    By the time you're experienced enough to get something germane out of a test ride, you won't need a test ride.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by pdedes View Post
    All modern caliper brakes have the potential to send you over the bars. I'm betting operator error. Squeeze the **** out of those levers. In the rain, squeeze twice, once to clear water from the braking surface and again to modulate speed.
    This is what I do when on the flat and it works ok. However at speed down a significant incline in very wet conditions I must constantly squeeze the brakes as hard as my hands will allow for the entire incline to simply keep my speed down to 30mph. Pre-braking is therefore moot.

  25. #50
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    Ok, today I rode two other bikes back to back with mine, both recent trek madones, one complete ultegra and one complete dura ace and both very well serviced. There was some (small) difference in brake feel but no difference in braking power (this was in the dry). Whilst I was there I tried my dad's old trek cromoly fixed fork mtb with early V-brakes and this braked far better than any of the road bikes - both better feel and lower effort at the bar for equal stopping power - easy to endo and still not go over the bars. Tempting to think that this could be due to a larger contact patch but with all four bikes the limit of deceleration (this was dry) was the need to avoid going over the bars, not the need to stop the wheel locking.

    Me and my old man then serviced my brakes, cleaning and re-greasing cables (replacing front brake cable) and checking setup carefully. I'm now completely happy that the rims, pads, cables, cross lever, ferules/receivers, brifter, bar and settings thereof are as perfectly clean/lubed, adjusted and positioned as they can be. This yielded a slightly slicker brake feel, but no difference in braking performance that I could tell. It also closed the gap with the madones such that there was no longer any difference in the dry that I could tell, neither in feel nor power. I'll have to wait until I get a properly wet day again to check wet performance but I'm doubtful there'll be any difference.

    I'm fast approaching the conclusion that calliper brakes (at least the sora-105, ultegra-ultegra and d.a.-d.a. brifter-calliper combinations that I've used) simply don't have the mechanical advantage to meet my personal expectations - at my weight - of braking performance in the wet.

    Given that I know that mini-Vs have significantly greater mechanical advantage over callipers I'm tempted to think that this may be an option, but I also expect that a higher advantage with the same cable pull is likely to result in a on-off feel. I wouldn't want to upgrade fork and brakes only to have to do so again.

    So, I'm also approaching the conclusion that if you're heavy, regularly ride fast in foul weather and want to know that you have plenty of power and modulation on tap regardless then discs might be the only way to go.

    Thanks for your input folks, I will update again when it rains!

    PS: This is Wales, so probably soon.

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