Gramin

Agreed, mostly... Because if you don't negotiate at Best Buy, then you're doing it wrong. Short of picking up a $20 cable, I always negotiate or have them price match, and especially on bigger things like tvs and appliances.

We live in an informed society a where business should expect a consumer to try to get the lowest price possible.

RollCNY

There is also operating margin. I am familiar with margin calculations, thanks. The only meaningful number in the success or failure of a business is net margin, and it is something no one here knows for a specific LBS without being inside the LBS. I assumed everyone was discussing net margin.

Also, I am a manufacturing guy, not retail, so I assume retail tracks and rolls overhead into COGS as manufacturing does. So the only big difference in manufacturing is SG&A between gross and net, but not as large as someone in retail if they are just tracking purchase price versus sale price.

StanSeven

Maybe this was already said because I didn't read the entire thread. Specialized bikes are in high demand. It's rare to find a high end one sitting in a shop for a long time. So you might want a big discount but that shop likely has several buyers interested in a 10%-20% discount on last years model. The shop will sell everything they have with a small discount.

RollCNY

I have reread this post a couple of times, and it confuses me. Buyer is not at a moral imperative to get the lowest price possible. If they were, one would never tip, or give to charity, or pay for a brand item when a no name alternative exists. Buyer has an obligation to pay a price commensurate with the perceived worth of what they are receiving, and some perceived worth is totally altruistic, hence charity.

Seller is not at a moral imperative to receive the highest price possible. If they were, we would be a nation of forced shortages, bidding wars, and haggling at every transaction. Seller derives value in attracting and retaining customers, in order to project a future level of sales. If every transaction was a one time, fire and forget transaction, both sides would be far more mercenary, as your post indicates.

LBS's are, in my opinion, in the relationship business, as much as the sales business. As simple as a bicycle is, many people are terrified of tuning and servicing their own bike. I find it humorous that many people view cars as easy to service anywhere, and are mercenary with the car dealership, but fear taking the same tactics with an LBS. So they want a good LBS relationship, want the hand holding, and don't want to alienate good service and get stuck with a squeaky, unreliable, asploding bike.

I buy a lot from my LBS, and I ask what they want for something. I have rarely paid MSRP, and if their offered discount doesn't bring the price in line with the value, I don't buy from them. I am pro LBS, but to say that I, or anyone, is looking to unhealthily inflate their NET margin, is false.

rpenmanparker 

You're nitpicking the discussion. First we're not discussing moral imperatives, but rather practical considerations rearding the purchase of a specic, already selected item. It has nothing to do with brand vs. no name goods. Tipping is an understood part of the informal sales contract for many goods and services. Price shopping and negotiating are not to be confused with cheating on an implied deal. Charity has nothing to do with buying and seling. It doesn't belong in this discussion

RollCNY

Wait, you were the one who brought up cultural and religious norms, and questioning ethics and morality. That is what I quoted up front. And for you to say I am nitpicking a discussion would be like having Bruce Lee tell me that I know martial arts.

rebel1916

Aaaaah BF, where anyone who takes a healthy interest in the price they will pay from the LBS is a cretinous villain, who is bound to upset the delicate balance of things, leaving us with no one to do mediocre repairs or sell us the wrong part at twice the price we would have paid online.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, cultural and religious norms dictating not negotiating, not norms requiring negotiating.

Let's pose a hypothtical. You bring home your new bike and go for a group ride. The guy next to you has the same new bike and tells you he paid $300 less. How do you feel about that? If you wish you got the lower price, just be advised it didn't happen by accident. The other guy did something to get the better price. If you don't care, that's okay too.

Long Tom

Yeah, I that's correct (I think).

What is not legal is for a manufacturer to dictate a sales price to dealers. At least that was true ~10 years ago. In the guitar world, Mesa Boogie was notable for violating this and I'm pretty sure they had to at least rework the language in their dealer contracts. However, it's semantics... or irrelevant... because it happens all the time, and perhaps since it largely serves to protect the dealer's profits by erecting a firewall of sorts, dealers aren't suing, and no government entities are prosecuting.

I could be wrong about this and am open to correction but it was a fairly active topic of conversation in the guitar world back then. The shop I worked in was a Mesa dealer and I heard it from all angles, from customers to the shop owner. Where it'd chap the shop owner's ass was how it prevented him from marking down stale inventory to move it along.

Long Tom

What's interesting, if we accept that Specialized sets minimum discounts, is that the consumer is then the ONLY party in the equation not allowed to negotiate, and I'm talking taking it all the way back to the extraction of the raw minerals, the smelting and processing of the metals, the creation of the polymer resins, the factories making the carbon fiber fibers and epoxy resins, and so on, right up through the whole process. There's negotiated deals all through it. Yet it's pure eeeeevil for a consumer to negotiate, or somehow immoral....?

RollCNY

Could you please cite where this has been written in this thread?

Long Tom

What, I don't get to set up a straw man?!

You have to admit, it's been an undercurrent to the conversation... bordering on the overt at times...

Nachoman

I'm pretty sure it was first cited in the Old Testament.

RollCNY

So now you're going Biblical on me?

rpenmanparker 

If you pay attention to the language used to discuss negotiation, it has definitely been overt. Phrases like, "grind..down." Or someone saying negotiating a bike price makes him "uncomfortable." Those are overt references to the disrepute in which negotiation is held by a large segment of the public. And it is a total misunderstanding of the true nature of the beast. Negotiation is the way that fair pricing and terms are settled. Any other way of doing business can only avoid being disadvantageous to one or the other participants in the deal fortuitously. That is no way to make or spend money.

dmcdam

So you don't believe that any retailer sets pricing based on what's fair for both parties? Meaning, you think that paying list price for something necessarily means that you're getting gouged? So when my lbs charges me the price on the box for tubes, I'm getting hosed?

RollCNY

Not just LBS but grocer, gas vendor, utilities, doctor, and hardware store. I am understanding that I am wrong to not negotiate every transaction at every commercial exchange. They are going to hate me at toll booths on the interstate, because those devils have a huge margin, and I'm not pulling through until I get most of it back.

Nachoman

blarnie

Yes, running a business. True. Active in charitable works, very true. VERY TRUE. Discounts given in many of the sales held through the year, on all stock. Not just selected stock. Also true. You would have to work very hard to pay full boat in this particular shop.

But, like I said. Tomorrow, I will go in a say "keep your damn discount", all I want is your love. Can you say that to your online retailers and get a hug in the bargain?

rpenmanparker 

You as a consumer have the right and responsibility to make those decisions for yourself, just like OP does. No one is advocating asinine behavior. Why does this discussion always have to be reduced to absurdity.

rpenmanparker 

As I said above, it is your right and responsibility to decide when to attempt to get a better price and when not. By experience we know what transactions are negotiable and which ones are not. There is no consensus that buying a bike is not negotiable. In fact the weight of opinion points the other way. Not everyone wants to negotiate with their LBS, but most folks seem to recognize it is possible. What is it about this topic that sends it barreling toward a ridiculous extreme end?

blarnie

It was asked on an open forum known as the "41".

dmcdam

Not sure what's absurd about my comment given this assertion:

rpenmanparker 

Not sure what you mean by the "price on the box". Do you mean the price marked by the LBS owner or an MSRP? If the former, I can't be sure the price is as good as I can do, but such goods aren't commonly negotiated. Small potatoes, but the principal is there. If MSRP, it is the LBS owner who is likely disadvantaged.

RollCNY

OP, everyone here, from page 1 on, has said to negotiate with one or more dealers. Remember my first post was to use the phone. But you kept asking for the straight dope, the inside skinny, the down low, which some people gave you. Seems like this was a successful thread, as I understood your original post. So how do we get to negotiating is evil?

Honestly, and I mean no offense by this, the way I understood your original post, you want to buy an exact and specific luxury item, that is unlikely in anyone's stock at this moment, and you want a significant discount on it. You can't wait for the normal sale events (annual sales or product clearances) by which most folks pick up ridiculous deals, but want the price that they get now.