Article on Bicycling.com: Perhaps we are taking this strava thing too far
10-18-13, 01:47 PM
#151
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10-18-13, 01:50 PM
#152
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To lower risk and liability, Strava is going to have to cover their ass so to speak...removing downhill sprint segments is a good place to start. Again...I'm not saying Strava is responsible for this man's death...but it did help setup the playing field that led to it.
I think that the plaintiff's lawyers knew this was a shot in the dark, that is why they did not appeal the trial court's decision. It is pretty difficult to win a case, even before it goes to trial, on a motion for summary judgment. The fact that the judge made her ruling, as soon as the lawyers were done speaking, tells me that it was a pretty clear cut case for her to decide for Strava.
I agree that Strava provided the arena and I also agree that the e-mails alerting a person when their KOM was taken were like waving a red flag in front of a charging bull. Eventually, however, we are all responsible for our actions/behaviors.
We will see how this plays out. Who knows Strava may eventually get rid of all KOMs, not just the downhill ones.
Ride often...ride safely.
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10-18-13, 02:47 PM
#153
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I'm not arguing what was the "leading contributor". I'm suggesting that it's disingenuous to suggest that speed played little role in a cyclist crossing a median on a blind downhill turn. Your argument is that it was poor judgment that caused him to go that fast. I'm saying that his speed caused his death. Regardless of which statement you believe, speed played much more than a little role.
In any case, for all practical purposes, the only things to consider is whether Strava is legally culpable. Apparently not. According to a judge charged directly with considering the question.
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10-18-13, 02:49 PM
#154
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I have to assume you didn't read the article in the OP. I'm not saying that speed causes these accidents in general. I am saying that speed caused this accident. That is what you were talking about when you said that in both cases cited, speed played little role, is that correct? So why don't you address the specific details of this case and explain to me how speed didn't play a major role...
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-18-13, 02:55 PM
#155
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If the "laws on the books" are sufficient, then there isn't any reason for Strava not to eliminate KOM's that require speeding.
No one is talking about being "forced".
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 10-18-13 at 03:01 PM.
10-18-13, 03:13 PM
#156
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The place where Flint crashed is only a quarter of a mile from the top of South Park—a sharp right downhill curve where a rider intent on taking it at high speed would have to cross into the oncoming lane to cut back through the apex. Adjacent to a picnic parking area on the left side of the road, it’s the lower part of a sweeping S-curve that follows a short rise in the plunging hill—an upturn so short that you don’t even have to resume pedaling, but which briefly blocks your view of the road ahead.
“It’s the only tricky turn on the whole descent,” says Steve Zavestoski. “Kim was a very analytical person; he knew every second he had to shave off.” Adds Aynesworth: “He knew the corners. He was just trying to go as fast as humanly possible. His father later told me that his bike was in perfect condition—his body absorbed all the impact.”
The SUV driver was a woman who had her young daughter in the backseat. They were heading uphill in their own lane when Flint came around the corner; according to park police, Flint braked so hard that he nearly flipped, fishtailed into the side of the vehicle, and ricocheted off.
“His skid marks went over the center line,” says Aynesworth, who visited the site two days later. “We found part of an eyepiece of his sunglasses with blood on it. It was horrible.”
“It’s the only tricky turn on the whole descent,” says Steve Zavestoski. “Kim was a very analytical person; he knew every second he had to shave off.” Adds Aynesworth: “He knew the corners. He was just trying to go as fast as humanly possible. His father later told me that his bike was in perfect condition—his body absorbed all the impact.”
The SUV driver was a woman who had her young daughter in the backseat. They were heading uphill in their own lane when Flint came around the corner; according to park police, Flint braked so hard that he nearly flipped, fishtailed into the side of the vehicle, and ricocheted off.
“His skid marks went over the center line,” says Aynesworth, who visited the site two days later. “We found part of an eyepiece of his sunglasses with blood on it. It was horrible.”
10-18-13, 03:17 PM
#157
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As imperfect as it is, the speed limit is some estimate of what the maximum safe speed for the cyclist/driver and other people that are around.
The presense/absense of good judgement at speeds less than the maximum is arguable: one is supposed to use a speed that is appropriate for conditions/experience/equipment/etc but that speed can't be greater than the speed limit.
In other words, exceeding the speed limit is sufficient but not necessary to indicate an "absense of good judgement" (basically).
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-18-13 at 03:24 PM.
10-18-13, 03:22 PM
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Speeding in excess of the speed limit is pretty-much "in absense of good judgement" by default.
The presense/absense of good judgement at speeds less than the maximum is arguable: one is supposed to use a speed that is appropriate for conditions/experience/equipment/etc but that speed can't be greater than the speed limit.
In other words, exceeding the speed limit is sufficient but not necessary to indicate an "absense of good judgement" (basically).
The presense/absense of good judgement at speeds less than the maximum is arguable: one is supposed to use a speed that is appropriate for conditions/experience/equipment/etc but that speed can't be greater than the speed limit.
In other words, exceeding the speed limit is sufficient but not necessary to indicate an "absense of good judgement" (basically).
10-18-13, 03:28 PM
#159
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Who is cycling on the highway? Why are you talking about highways?
Since you can get a ticket for it, then there's some degree "absense of good judgement"! There certainly is no need to speed. What sort of "good judgement" exists for something that you don't need to do but might get a ticket for?
If you get into an accident while speeding, it's less likely it would be reasonable to assume that you were displaying "good judgment" when you chose to speed.
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-18-13 at 03:33 PM.
10-18-13, 03:32 PM
#160
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Going 66mph down the highway is necessarily in "absence of good judgement"?
10-18-13, 03:34 PM
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Who is cycling on the highway? Why are you talking about highways? It sounds like you are looking for some sort of perfect thing (I'm not arguing that speed limits are perfect).
Since you can get a ticket for it, then there's some degree "absense of good judgement"! If you get into an accident while speeding, it's less likely it would be reasonable to assume that you were displaying "good judgment" when you chose to speed.
Since you can get a ticket for it, then there's some degree "absense of good judgement"! If you get into an accident while speeding, it's less likely it would be reasonable to assume that you were displaying "good judgment" when you chose to speed.
All I'm looking for is some semblence of a consistent point from you. You know, a coherent set of beliefs you express clearly. Seems to be too much to ask for.
10-18-13, 03:35 PM
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But not all of them. It sound like you think that Strava should just assume that all speed limits are bogus. If not, then how any particular speed limit came to be isn't really known.
10-18-13, 03:39 PM
#163
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In other words, a cyclist with better skill would likely have descended just as fast (or faster) than Flint and been fine. My wife on a bike at 20mph is way less safe than I am at 55mph (on a descent). Skill, and the judgement to ride at a certain speed, has to be central to any argument about cause and effect.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-18-13, 03:42 PM
#164
TFO
I just don't think speed limits are the end all be all - they need to be taken with a grain of salt. In any case, how is Strava supposed to know what any given segment speed limit is? Is that part of GPS data?
10-18-13, 03:45 PM
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My Garmin Nuvi in the car has speed limit data on a majority of roads, especially major roads. Some of it, of course, is wrong or outdated, and I don't know where they got it from or what (if anything) they paid for it.
10-18-13, 03:46 PM
#166
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I don't think you get this. Strava doesn't know the speed limit of any particular road unless someone tells them!
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-18-13, 03:48 PM
#167
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Strava gets its maps from Google, I believe. Garmin's maps are proprietary to Garmin.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-18-13, 03:48 PM
#168
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Do you ride over 65 mph there?
That looks like your problem. You haven't demonstrated any lack of consitency or lack of coherency. Other people don't seem to see any either (even if they don't agree with me).
That looks like your problem. You haven't demonstrated any lack of consitency or lack of coherency. Other people don't seem to see any either (even if they don't agree with me).
10-18-13, 03:51 PM
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10-18-13, 03:52 PM
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No... you asked why I was talking about riding on the highway.
I'm not the only one annoyed by your fuzzy goalposts on the speed limit topic.
I'm not the only one annoyed by your fuzzy goalposts on the speed limit topic.
10-18-13, 03:57 PM
#171
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Not saying that Strava should use it, only that your statement is incorrect.
10-18-13, 04:06 PM
#172
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EDIT: I am incorrect: I don't think Google keeps track of speed limits, rather, it categorizes roads and assigns speeds (for the purpose of trip time estimation) based on the road type (rural HWY = 55mph, residential = 25-35mph, etc.).
Google uses street signs and data from various sources. As it is though, I'm not sure you can use their API and get that information out of it. Maybe you can. Maybe Strava's solution is simply to max out a segment time to the speed limit. On a popular downhill run, maybe the first dozen people are "first" with the exact time it would take to get to the bottom of the hill at the speed limit. Seems like a good compromise if Strava has access to this data. Relatively easy to program as well. Simply use the trip estimator and set that time as the lower bound on times for that segment. Won't eliminate all the moronic behavior, might not be enough to save Flint from himself or the other dude from his 1000 hours of community service, but it wouldn't rely on Strava route fights between users.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 10-18-13 at 04:22 PM.
10-18-13, 04:11 PM
#173
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Apparently they get it from NAVTEQ, which is a map company that supplies most of the maps for GPS devices. The speed limit information is only used to estimate trip times. It is frequently inaccurate, according to my 30-sec Google search.
I don't think Google keeps track of speed limits, rather, it categorizes roads and assigns speeds (for the purpose of trip time estimation) based on the road type (rural HWY = 55mph, residential = 25-35mph, etc.).
I don't think Google keeps track of speed limits, rather, it categorizes roads and assigns speeds (for the purpose of trip time estimation) based on the road type (rural HWY = 55mph, residential = 25-35mph, etc.).
10-18-13, 04:16 PM
#174
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Ugg. That would annoy me to death...
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-18-13, 04:24 PM
#175
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"Gamification" isn't an insult. It's value neutral. It can be good or bad, or neither.
I can't tell if you're being ironic by blaming someone else for how much our society blames someone else.
The difference between making a game of accumulating distance and making a game of how fast one can traverse roads and paths shared with other vehicles and pedestrians is that the first doesn't endanger others, while the second does. Part of personal responsibility includes consideration for the safety of others.
I can't tell if you're being ironic by blaming someone else for how much our society blames someone else.
The difference between making a game of accumulating distance and making a game of how fast one can traverse roads and paths shared with other vehicles and pedestrians is that the first doesn't endanger others, while the second does. Part of personal responsibility includes consideration for the safety of others.
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