Article on Bicycling.com: Perhaps we are taking this strava thing too far
10-18-13, 04:28 PM
#176
Portland Fred
In the say we sue makers of race bikes. Who are they trying to kid? The whole idea of their product is to help people go as fast as they can on a bike. And through their tie ins with high profile cycling events, they encourage people to imitate the behavior of professionals engaged in high risk activities.
If it weren't for race bikes, people wouldn't go nearly as fast*. And while we're at it, we should probably go after the other computer manufacturers too -- it's crystal clear that many people use them to help motivate them to go faster
* Except for 'bent riders who can already waste race bikes on downhill stretches
If it weren't for race bikes, people wouldn't go nearly as fast*. And while we're at it, we should probably go after the other computer manufacturers too -- it's crystal clear that many people use them to help motivate them to go faster
* Except for 'bent riders who can already waste race bikes on downhill stretches
10-18-13, 04:30 PM
#177
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Google uses street signs and data from various sources. As it is though, I'm not sure you can use their API and get that information out of it. Maybe you can. Maybe Strava's solution is simply to max out a segment time to the speed limit. On a popular downhill run, maybe the first dozen people are "first" with the exact time it would take to get to the bottom of the hill at the speed limit. Seems like a good compromise if Strava has access to this data. Relatively easy to program as well. Simply use the trip estimator and set that time as the lower bound on times for that segment.
Perfection isn't really the goal (it's not really possible).
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-18-13 at 04:37 PM.
10-18-13, 04:38 PM
#178
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My Garmin GPS tells me the speed limit. Strava works with Garmin devices to pull GPS data. So it is possible for a program to tell you the speed limit of a road, and I would imagine not too much more work for Strava to figure that out. I'm sure there would be a licensing fee, but it's not like it is an impossible technological barrier keeping it from happening.
You should go back and see where you got lost.
10-18-13, 04:49 PM
#180
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10-18-13, 04:59 PM
#181
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The speed limit conversation is humorous in that, in New York at least, you can get a speeding ticket driving (and therefore riding) under the limit for either road conditions (1180(a)), or not appropriately reducing speed for intersections, curves, narrow road sections, hill crests, and pedestrian areas (1180(e)). Seems it would make posted speed limit a difficult criteria.
If Strava was concerned about scoff laws and break neck speed, why not simply ditch leader boards on any descent over a certain grade? That math is easy, since they have distance and elevation change.
And why does my tablet change descent into decent every time, forcing me to edit it? Nuts.
EDIT: the stupid thing did it again, and made tablet into table. It doesn't know its own noun!
If Strava was concerned about scoff laws and break neck speed, why not simply ditch leader boards on any descent over a certain grade? That math is easy, since they have distance and elevation change.
And why does my tablet change descent into decent every time, forcing me to edit it? Nuts.
EDIT: the stupid thing did it again, and made tablet into table. It doesn't know its own noun!
10-18-13, 05:13 PM
#182
Portland Fred
Though gravel, debris, holes, ice/water, etc can make even flat sections dangerous. As a compromise, I propose eliminating times made by any person who went over 20mph.
10-18-13, 05:21 PM
#183
Senior Member
We could all just vote Strava out of existence. Then none of us would get our feelings hurt when we find we are 323'rd out of 325 riders on a climb we thought we went all out on.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
10-18-13, 05:27 PM
#184
Senior Member
Some would say that it does endanger others. Do you EVER pass pedestrians or other cyclists or ride on roads as you gather your miles? If so, then at some point you've endangered others to some extent. Who gets to decide how much endangerment is OK and when to start dictating others' behavior?
Lots of fun things are illegal, banned, discouraged, shunned, etc., because of their potential for harm. That's all part of how groups protect themselves from themselves.
If Strava removed all downhill segments over some specified grade in an effort to reduce harm would you consider that "Cycling Nannies" ruining something?
10-18-13, 05:36 PM
#186
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Strava downhill segments containing turns must be banned in the states that just legalized marijuana. Not because of speed, but because they forget to turn.
10-18-13, 11:17 PM
#187
bill nyecycles
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i don't understand why there is even an argument.
if you act like a fool, you deserve what's coming to you. if you hurt others in the process of acting a fool, you definitely deserve what's coming to you.
i don't care about laws or rights or any of that legal garbage. COMMON SENSE should be the only true freakin law in the universe.
and gravity.
gravity is awesome.
if you act like a fool, you deserve what's coming to you. if you hurt others in the process of acting a fool, you definitely deserve what's coming to you.
i don't care about laws or rights or any of that legal garbage. COMMON SENSE should be the only true freakin law in the universe.
and gravity.
gravity is awesome.
10-19-13, 03:02 PM
#188
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The local highly used bike path has installed one of those digital speed camera signs on a downhill portion of the trail. If you are exceeding their posted limit (of 15mph) by at least 5 mph, it lets you know .. and I've heard that it snaps your photo, but I haven't confirmed that yet. It does flash in the way those speed cameras flash (albeit a lower intensity flash) so sure seems like it.
They've tried to enforce speed on the trail in the past but with little success. The truth is that the limit is useless. The speed is too slow when the trail is empty and too fast when it's packed (often on the weekends).
I try to smile when I go by, no sense letting them down.
They've tried to enforce speed on the trail in the past but with little success. The truth is that the limit is useless. The speed is too slow when the trail is empty and too fast when it's packed (often on the weekends).
I try to smile when I go by, no sense letting them down.
10-19-13, 03:33 PM
#189
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I bet if the sensor was attached to a harpoon gun, rather than a camera, speeding would cease overnight.
10-19-13, 08:06 PM
#190
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We do.
And I'm not calling for anything like that, just questioning the notion that Strava has no culpability in these deaths.
Lots of fun things are illegal, banned, discouraged, shunned, etc., because of their potential for harm. That's all part of how groups protect themselves from themselves.
If Strava removed all downhill segments over some specified grade in an effort to reduce harm would you consider that "Cycling Nannies" ruining something?
And I'm not calling for anything like that, just questioning the notion that Strava has no culpability in these deaths.
Lots of fun things are illegal, banned, discouraged, shunned, etc., because of their potential for harm. That's all part of how groups protect themselves from themselves.
If Strava removed all downhill segments over some specified grade in an effort to reduce harm would you consider that "Cycling Nannies" ruining something?
10-19-13, 08:11 PM
#191
Senior Member
Using this logic, however, a car maker could be sued for making a vehicle that is capable of speeds that could potentially cause injury or death to others at a higher rate than a more typical vehicle. However, you don't see Ferrari, Lamborghini or other exotic car makers sued over the way their cars are used. This is because generally companies can't be held culpable for misuse of their products or service as long as they're appropriately designed.
10-19-13, 08:43 PM
#193
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I hear ya, but businesses aren't really designed to be moral organizations. Even if you want to "do good" as a business, the whole concept is very subjective in that what one person feels is improper, another person sees as an unwanted limitation. Generally, most businesses take the view that as long as there's nothing inherently unsafe about their product or service, they can't be held liable for the way folks use it and courts have agreed.
10-19-13, 08:49 PM
#194
Senior Member
I hear ya, but businesses aren't really designed to be moral organizations. Even if you want to "do good" as a business, the whole concept is very subjective in that what one person feels is improper, another person sees as an unwanted limitation. Generally, most businesses take the view that as long as there's nothing inherently unsafe about their product or service, they can't be held liable for the way folks use it and courts have agreed.
10-19-13, 08:57 PM
#195
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I see where you're going, but in the strict sense of the modern world, that's not really true. What I mean is you touch a business every time you use a product or service; you just don't pay much attention to it unless something goes wrong. We're talking specifically about Strava here, which is a business. The fact that it's used in a recreational context is beside the point from a legal perspective.
It gets especially tricky when you try to make a legal claim against a service, such as Strava, because most successful liability claims are based on things like faulty workmanship, design, etc. None of those things are applicable in a service like Strava because it would be beyond asinine to go into a court and claim a computer-based service forced you to do something. Even if you made the claim that it's competitive element enticed you to do something, most any reasonable judge or jury would say the fact that a human has the built-in ability to reason means you should have known better.
It gets especially tricky when you try to make a legal claim against a service, such as Strava, because most successful liability claims are based on things like faulty workmanship, design, etc. None of those things are applicable in a service like Strava because it would be beyond asinine to go into a court and claim a computer-based service forced you to do something. Even if you made the claim that it's competitive element enticed you to do something, most any reasonable judge or jury would say the fact that a human has the built-in ability to reason means you should have known better.
10-19-13, 09:03 PM
#196
Senior Member
I see where you're going, but in the strict sense of the modern world, that's not really true. What I mean is you touch a business every time you use a product or service; you just don't pay much attention to it unless something goes wrong. We're talking specifically about Strava here, which is a business. The fact that it's used in a recreational context is beside the point from a legal perspective.
It gets especially tricky when you try to make a legal claim against a service, such as Strava, because most successful liability claims are based on things like faulty workmanship, design, etc. None of those things are applicable in a service like Strava because it would be beyond asinine to go into a court and claim a computer-based service forced you to do something. Even if you made the claim that it's competitive element enticed you to do something, most any reasonable judge or jury would say the fact that a human has the built-in ability to reason means you should have known better.
It gets especially tricky when you try to make a legal claim against a service, such as Strava, because most successful liability claims are based on things like faulty workmanship, design, etc. None of those things are applicable in a service like Strava because it would be beyond asinine to go into a court and claim a computer-based service forced you to do something. Even if you made the claim that it's competitive element enticed you to do something, most any reasonable judge or jury would say the fact that a human has the built-in ability to reason means you should have known better.
10-19-13, 09:10 PM
#197
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Because maximizing profits, while ensuring compliance with the law, is the only thing any business and its leaders is going to care about. Businesses aren't altruistic.Also, you brought up the concept of questioning whether Strava has culpability in the deaths. Culpability is a legal concept, plain and simple. Given that, the law governs the entire discussion of your premise.
10-19-13, 09:21 PM
#198
Senior Member
Because maximizing profits, while ensuring compliance with the law, is the only thing any business and its leaders is going to care about. Businesses aren't altruistic.Also, you brought up the concept of questioning whether Strava has culpability in the deaths. Culpability is a legal concept, plain and simple. Given that, the law governs the entire discussion of your premise.
10-20-13, 10:01 AM
#200
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This is all BS!
How can we blame an app/device for our own actions.
I'm know its our nature to put the blame on someone/something, but no one puts a gun to our heads & says we have to achieve KOM's @ all costs.
We're responsible for all of our actions whether they be positive, or negative.
I'm sorry if lives were lost here but this whole blame Strava is BS, & need to stop.
I believe there's more accidents/deaths related to people texting, & driving/walking but you don't hear us calling our for bans on our devices, cars, or walking.
Risk is a part of life, you can live a sheltered life, live on the edge,etc, but be prepared for anything.
You can't predict the unexpected, some variables cannot be avoided. Life/Cycling is not like the movie Premium Rush.
How can we blame an app/device for our own actions.
I'm know its our nature to put the blame on someone/something, but no one puts a gun to our heads & says we have to achieve KOM's @ all costs.
We're responsible for all of our actions whether they be positive, or negative.
I'm sorry if lives were lost here but this whole blame Strava is BS, & need to stop.
I believe there's more accidents/deaths related to people texting, & driving/walking but you don't hear us calling our for bans on our devices, cars, or walking.
Risk is a part of life, you can live a sheltered life, live on the edge,etc, but be prepared for anything.
You can't predict the unexpected, some variables cannot be avoided. Life/Cycling is not like the movie Premium Rush.