rpenmanparker 

I don't understand your response. I am not advocating he rebuild the wheel with spokes that are too long. I am suggesting he get the right length spokes, whatever those may be. There is no risk to that at all. And it may just be one of the three length spokes (front, rear DS or rear NDS) that is faulty. So it might only be a partial rebuild. And what does it mean to pull the spoke out of the hub; do you mean disassembling? Yes, of course, you just remove the faulty spokes and replace them with proper one. How else would you go about it? And he doesn't have to do the labor himself. There may be a local wheel builder or competent LBS. In any case we agree that correcting a spoke length error would be the cheapest way to go and would salvage a likely otherwise okay set of wheels.

hamster

I am just warning that trying to get the spoke length exactly right might result in total build failure. For some reason the fact that spokes can't go over the length is not emphasized in most wheel building guides. Say you took your measurements and plugged into a calculator, it told you that you need 261.2 mm spokes, spokes you use come in 260 or 262, so you round to the nearest size and get 262, then they elongate another 1 mm under tension, bringing you to 263, and you're screwed. (I suppose you might be able to salvage situation with nipple washers.)

kflagg 

Love my Mavic Ksyrium elite S at the top of your range $509.00 shipped.
Tires and tubes included.

bermanfb28

I would pick from one of these wheels for that price.

https://www.mavic.us/wheels-roadtriat...s#.Uq5JlI2nW9c

https://www.mavic.us/wheels-roadtriat...s#.Uq5Jmo2nW9c

rpenmanparker 

Your concern is highly exaggerated. Longer is always better than shorter up to the point of bottomong out the spoke in the nipple. But in general the spoke can protrude a few mm past the top of the nipple and still not be at its adjustability limit. Careful attention to determination of the necessary spoke length should be sufficie t to avoid bottoming out. The lengthening of spokes under tension is real but is highly exaggerated. Rounding up to the next available spoke length even when that is more than 1.0 mm has never caused me a problem. The error in spoke length has to much larger than that to cause a problem. Spokes that are too short are a much bigger problem.

hamster

Granted, my experience is limited to only a few different kinds of modern spokes and nipples, but none of the spokes I encountered so far could be screwed into the nipple to the point where it would protrude from the other end.

Look at the following photo (particularly at the spot where the thread ends) and you can see why:



Here the same effect is more exaggerated:

rpenmanparker 

Dunno. I've got four pairs of self-built wheels and three of them have spoke ends protruding above the nipple top. DT Revolutions and Sapim CX-Rays with DT and Sapim 12 mm nipples. The threads don't start at the bottom of the nipple, and rhe threaded length on the spoke is generally as long as the nipple so some overshoot is provided for. In the old days the nipple top was right in the tire bed. Rim tape wouldn't protect the tube from an exposed spoke end. Many times I used spokes that were too long and actually had to trim off the exposed couple of mm back to be flush with the top of the nipple to keep from puncturing tubes. Never bottomed out the nipple so that I couldn't tighten it as needed.

hamster

OK. The maximum amount of protrusion is the difference between nipple thread length and spoke thread length. Spoke thread is pretty consistently around 9 mm for all major manufacturers. If you have 12 mm nipples and they are only threaded through the top 8 mm, the spoke would protrude up to ~1 mm out of the top at full insertion. If you use 14 mm nipples, the spoke would only reach the bottom of the screwdriver slot before stopping.

A link with pictures. https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/tec...engagement.php It says that 12 mm is "standard", but I don't think that it's as standard as they paint it (I have three independently acquired sets of nipples, one is 12 mm and two are 14 mm). That would explain the disagreement.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, you have to be very careful when using 14 mm nipples. In effect, 14 mm nipples reduce the ERD of the rim as compared to 12 mm nipples as well as making it trickier to fill the nipple with spoke threads. Likely this is the source of our disagreement.

But see the photo of a DT Champion 14 ga spoke and 12 mm DT nipple also 14 ga. I am showing much more than 1 mm of threads exposed on top. And the threads are still fully functional. I can screw the spoke in or out at will. There is really no "stop" as you say on these types of spokes and nipples. Of course you want as much thread engaged as possible so this would be silly. Just showing that the bottoming out doesn't always happen.

Fred Smedley

Sounds like your measuring method and /or spoke calculator needs closer investigation.

rpenmanparker 

Pas de tout! Sometimes it is because the ERD provided by the supplier is less than completely accurate. Sometimes it is partially about spoke stretch. Sometimes I just use spokes that I have lying around and which may be little too long. And yeah, maybe once in a great while I do make a mistake.

No big deal. When you are building you own wheels and redoing them from time to time to try out this or that variation, perfection isn't so important. Ride it like that for a few months, and then try something else. Once it is recognized as an empirical hobby, all the rules go away.

I will say this though, I would much rather use a spoke that is 2 mm too long than 2 mm too short. Of course just right is fine, but pulling short spokes up to the nipple to get the threads started can be a real PITA unless you have three hands. But now that the nipple heads are commonly submerged inside the aero rim profile and can't damage the tube, exposed spoke threads don't make a whole lot of difference as long as the maximum number of thread is engaged. So longer is really a little bit better as far as I am concerned.

Fred Smedley

Why not just measure your rims? Two spokes cut down to 200mm with a nipple installed with the spoke end flush with the slot and a ruler assures a accurate number. Case in point, my last wheel build, ERD did NOT measure the same as manufacturer supplied number, the previous build it did , even though it was same rim WTB i19 frequency, just a different size wheel, 27.5 vs 29. No need to build with the wrong length spokes when measuring rims and hubs is easy.

rpenmanparker 

Sure. I do that when no ERD is supplied for a given rim. I just never thought it important enough when I have a fairly accurate number from the supplier. I don't disagree with you, just never thought about it being important until reading your post. Besides, most of the time I order my rims and spokes at the same time, so it is usually necessary to rely on the published number. I could wait until I measure the rim to order the spokes, but that would be a drag. I assure you, when the wheel is built and the tires installed, no one knows exactly where the spoke threads end. As long as the maximum number (or very nearly so) of threads are engaged between the spoke and the nipple, it is all good. Make no mistake; in no way am I saying you are wrong. Only that it isn't always necessary to be quite so right! Happy riding!

Sexywheelman14

A longer nipple, (14mm / 16mm Vs. a 12mm) doesn't reduce a rim's ERD, the section of the nipple where the flats are is longer, the threaded section remains the same. A rim's spoke length requirement remains the same, but if your spoke is short, a longer nipple will "hide" the spoke threads, due to the longer flatted section.

Most spokes have threaded sections of about 10mm, but it ranges usually from 9-12mm. Most nipples have a threaded section of 6 - 8mm. So spokes have excess "range" to "fit" a nipple. The "excess" is even greater than strictly calculated, since the last 1 - 2mm threaded section of a regular slotted nipple, isn't really meant to be the supporting section of the nipple. Meaning, only 5 - 6mm of the nipple is really doing any work.

A nipple will only affect a rim's measured ERD if the nipple has an extreme head shape to it, but the key work here is extreme. Or if by nipple, you mean nipple washer + nipple, which would affect your spoke lengths by a solid 1mm.

rpenmanparker 

Okay, that's good to know. I thought longer nipples had longer threaded section. Thanks.

hamster

At the very least, it varies by manufacturer.

If you keep screwing the spoke in, what's going to happen eventually? Will it finally stop or will it go all the way through and slide through the nipple?

If it stops, you have a nipple with an unusually short thread. (DT reports spoke thread length of 9-10 mm https://www.dtswiss.com/Resources/Sup...ication-Spokes and I see 3 mm of spoke showing, so you have at most 7 mm of thread inside the nipple.)

If it goes through, you have a spoke with an unusual thread profile.

rpenmanparker 

I know we have differences in experience in this area, but these observations are not new to me. I have been seeing these effects for at least 30 years. I stopped screwing the nipple on at that point that you see for the purposes of the photo, but it can keep going until, as you say, the nipple just slides down the spoke. Then it can be pulled back up to the threads and unscrewed off the spoke again. This even though both spoke and nipple have their full, normal allotment of threads, not short thread length. This is a DT Champion spoke and DT nipple, arguably the most popular spokes and nipples in the entire global market place. Nothing unusual about it at all. It just works that way.

hamster

I don't see why this would be happening with this spoke/nipple combination. DT Champion 14-gauge straight gauge spokes have 2.0 mm diameter and FG2.3 threads:

https://www.dtswiss.com/Resources/Sup...ication-Spokes

FG2.3 threads have outer diameter of 2.299 mm and inner diameter of 1.816 mm:

https://www.gewinde-normen.de/en/cycle-thread.html

Matching nipples should have grooves just wider than 1.816 mm and they should not be able to slide down a 2.0 mm spoke.

You might have a mismatch: a 14-gauge spoke and a 13-gauge nipple, or a 15-gauge spoke and a 14-gauge nipple, in both cases the nipple could look like it fits (a 15-gauge spoke with FG 2.0 thread would have the outer thread diameter of 2.096 mm, sufficient to interlock with the thread in a 14-gauge nipple but with substantial amount of air between them.)

P.S. I tried to measure the spoke from your picture in a graphics editor. Using the nipple as a reference and assuming that it's 12 mm, I get the spoke diameter of 1.8 mm (15-gauge).

rpenmanparker 

BTW, just tried it with Sapim CX-Rays and Sapim alloy nipples and it didn't work. Can't screw on the nipple past the last thread. Must be a peculiarity of old model DT spokes.

reeper250

Lots of good information about spokes and nipples which is great. I'd like to keep the wheel set below 1600 grams with rims preferred over 25mm. Most rims I have seen are quite slim or the retailers don't ship to Australia. I would prefer tubular rims as I prefer the ride although clincher are still fine. The campagnolo zonda wheel set weighs around 1550g and they're $409 although I would like to build my own wheels. I only weigh 58kg so rider weight is not an issue.

Thanks for all your replies so far!

rpenmanparker 

25 mm deep or 25 mm wide? Wide shouldn't be important if you go tubular.

reeper250

Meant deep

reeper250

Currently looking at these but haven't chosen spokes yet. Would I be better off with different hubs or the spare novatec hubs?

reeper250

Purchased everything
CN Aero424 spokes (gloss black)
H Plus Son Archetype rims (matte black)
UniQ Ezo hubs (red)
Pillar spoke nipples (red)
Titanium skewers (red)

While I was buying the stuff for the wheels I ended up buying stuff to build a complete new bike with campagnolo chorus