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  1. #26
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    Impact of wheels?

    Heck I ride 40 yr old steel rimmed wheels on some of my bikes. I actually like the ride, with old Schwinn Puff tires. I think some people over think and over engineer this stuff. It's a pedal bike we're talking about.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Are you attributing the speed gain in your coast down test to better aero dynamics or what? What did you do to equalize differences in rolling resistance that could be caused by different tires and tubes, rim widths and tire pressure? And on your old wheels, do you know for sure that the bearing tension was set optimally and that they were in good enough condition to provide a suitable comparison?

    And how many runs are you talking, anyway? I have seen enough well documented coast down tests to know that very minor differences in body position and wind can cause large differences in results. For one person to assemble meaningful data it would required a lot of time and effort with a very focused and disciplined tester.

    Per the OPs original question which was regarding $2000 wheels vs. $400 dollar ones, how do you know that your simple test would not have yielded similar results had you compared your original wheels with an identical set that had been built with a 23mm wide touring rim with freshly serviced hubs at little to no additional cost?
    ...and your post is 100% why I rarely get into gear conversations.


    Listen, I have a giant hill that is right outside my home...a hill I have to coast down, then ride back up every time I ride. A hill large enough that other local riders attempt to set speed records on it. I've taken it literally 100's of times...or more. The hill is so large, I refuse to push it with pedaling, I can easily coast down it at 40+ mph...if I were pedaling it would be higher (my max on it was 52 mph back before I stopped pushing things...). So...coasting down the same hill, 100s of times, on different wheels and different tires, I have a good set of data to go off of.

    I'm not claiming anything is snake oil...or that some piece of gear made me a pro racer. I'm saying that the wheels I currently own ride quite a bit nicer than my stockers...which may have a whopping 300-500 miles on them tops.

  3. #28
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    ...and your post is 100% why I rarely get into gear conversations.


    Listen, I have a giant hill that is right outside my home...a hill I have to coast down, then ride back up every time I ride. A hill large enough that other local riders attempt to set speed records on it. I've taken it literally 100's of times...or more. The hill is so large, I refuse to push it with pedaling, I can easily coast down it at 40+ mph...if I were pedaling it would be higher (my max on it was 52 mph back before I stopped pushing things...). So...coasting down the same hill, 100s of times, on different wheels and different tires, I have a good set of data to go off of.

    I'm not claiming anything is snake oil...or that some piece of gear made me a pro racer. I'm saying that the wheels I currently own ride quite a bit nicer than my stockers...which may have a whopping 300-500 miles on them tops.
    The problem is the claimed "couple of mph" improvement is significntly above any reasonable estimate predicted by wind tunnel data, and manufacturer's claims.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    The problem is the claimed "couple of mph" improvement is significntly above any reasonable estimate predicted by wind tunnel data, and manufacturer's claims.
    I can pick up "a couple of mph" going down a steep hill by barely pressing on the pedals...how is this such an absurd claim? Do they have many wind tunnels at a 20%+ grade?

  5. #30
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    I can pick up "a couple of mph" going down a steep hill by barely pressing on the pedals...how is this such an absurd claim?
    Because at those speeds, a couple mph is a huge difference in resistance.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    ...and your post is 100% why I rarely get into gear conversations.


    Listen, I have a giant hill that is right outside my home...a hill I have to coast down, then ride back up every time I ride. A hill large enough that other local riders attempt to set speed records on it. I've taken it literally 100's of times...or more. The hill is so large, I refuse to push it with pedaling, I can easily coast down it at 40+ mph...if I were pedaling it would be higher (my max on it was 52 mph back before I stopped pushing things...). So...coasting down the same hill, 100s of times, on different wheels and different tires, I have a good set of data to go off of.

    I'm not claiming anything is snake oil...or that some piece of gear made me a pro racer. I'm saying that the wheels I currently own ride quite a bit nicer than my stockers...which may have a whopping 300-500 miles on them tops.
    I'm really not trying to argue with you on whether they ride nicer or not. But as to the OPs question, why they ride nice and how much (if anything) that costs is the issue.

    For some people, a wider rim or tire that they can run at a lower pressure can make a noticeable difference in comfort. They might also notice a handling or rolling resistance difference. Others, especially if they are relatively light might not feel any improvement. But either way, it does not really cost anything, it is just a matter of being appropriate to the rider. (Obviously if you need to buy something new it will be at some cost, but the technology is nothing new regardless of what HED wants to say).

    Now, there are wheel components that cost money. Say CX-Rays at ~$3 a piece compared to standard DB spokes at ~$1. The advantages in aerodynamics and weight may or may not be useful to a rider depending on their circumstance.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    I can pick up "a couple of mph" going down a steep hill by barely pressing on the pedals...how is this such an absurd claim? Do they have many wind tunnels at a 20%+ grade?
    Another point, if it takes your giant hill with a 20%+ grade to bring out the difference it may not matter to many to other cyclists.

    In fact, if they didn't ride nicer and +2mph on 20% grade at 40mph+ was the most noticeable difference would it matter to you?

  8. #33
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    It depends almost entirely on your gullibility and the vividness of your imagination.

  9. #34
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    For the love of God...how about I just say what so many of you really want to hear:

    Nothing makes a single shred of difference, I'm full of crap. I have no scientists following me around with 1.5 million dollars worth of test equipment therefore everything thing I claim, no matter how small that claim may be, is complete and utter BS (and I am an imaginative moron for having though it in the first place).


    OP...listen to these guys. Nothing you will buy will make a crap-bit of a difference. Buy a GMC bike from Amazon and be happy because this is literally the best riding experience you will ever get. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING will make even the slightest difference in performance no matter what anything tells you...because you will never have the die hard scientific data to prove it.


    There...you guys happy with that response?
    Last edited by Smokehouse; 01-03-14 at 01:39 PM.

  10. #35
    Senior Member pgjackson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
    Very small difference, for a huge sum of money.
    This.

    At the risk of upsetting the cycling scientists here, despite what all the marketing says you probably won't notice any difference no matter what wheels you have. Sure, wind tunnel experiments might say this wheel is X-amout of measuring criteria better than another wheel...but ultimately, out on the road, it truly won't amount to a big advantage. Buy wheels for looks, not marketing.
    Last edited by pgjackson; 01-03-14 at 01:57 PM.
    "These are questions for wise men with skinny arms." - Khal Drogo
    2011 Rossetti Vertigo w/ SRAM Rival 16.1lbs

  11. #36
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    I am not gonna get involved in a pissing contest. I'll say, though, that I have seven pairs of modern wheelsets, and they all give relatively different "rides". They range from 50MM to Mavic Open Pros, which are the shallowest wheelset, and I can say wheels are probably where the most enjoyment is on a bike after the frameset. At least for me.
    Regards,

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  12. #37
    Senior Member Jay68442's Avatar
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    I upgraded my wheelset from a pair of Mavic open sport to a pair of ROL SLR's. It was a $650 upgrade, I don't consider that to be a crazy amount of money. The very first thing I noticed right away was the rolling resistance. The hubs on the new wheelset were so much better than the old ones. I felt it as soon as I pushed off to start my ride. Overall a much soother ride and a small gain in average speed. Just my 2 cents
    If you look for the truth outside yourself, it gets farther and farther away. ~ Tung-Shan

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    For the love of God...how about I just say what so many of you really want to hear:

    Nothing makes a single shred of difference, I'm full of crap. I have no scientists following me around with 1.5 million dollars worth of test equipment therefore everything thing I claim, no matter how small that claim may be, is complete and utter BS (and I am an imaginative moron for having though it in the first place).


    OP...listen to these guys. Nothing you will buy will make a crap-bit of a difference. Buy a GMC bike from Amazon and be happy because this is literally the best riding experience you will ever get. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING will make even the slightest difference in performance no matter what anything tells you...because you will never have the die hard scientific data to prove it.


    There...you guys happy with that response?
    Well, yeah. I was trying to figure out how to say just that. I dunno how I got so confused and mentioned that crap about spokes and rims and tires possibly making a difference.

  14. #39
    Arrogant Roadie Punk save10's Avatar
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    This thread cannot be locked soon enough.

  15. #40
    Senior Member lsberrios1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    For the love of God...how about I just say what so many of you really want to hear:

    Nothing makes a single shred of difference, I'm full of crap. I have no scientists following me around with 1.5 million dollars worth of test equipment therefore everything thing I claim, no matter how small that claim may be, is complete and utter BS (and I am an imaginative moron for having though it in the first place).


    OP...listen to these guys. Nothing you will buy will make a crap-bit of a difference. Buy a GMC bike from Amazon and be happy because this is literally the best riding experience you will ever get. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING will make even the slightest difference in performance no matter what anything tells you...because you will never have the die hard scientific data to prove it.


    There...you guys happy with that response?
    Don't get mad bro. While your statement is 99% true, that 1% does make a difference. (to me)
    Cat 6 going on PRO....

  16. #41
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Stiff wheels make a difference compared to not so stiff ones, IMHO. Tires also. Quality tires ride better, in general.

    I have found nicer components generally don't go out of true as quickly as lower end stuff...that may be worth the price to you.
    "Even people opposed to religion need calm minds and compassion to make their work more effective."

  17. #42
    Senior Member shoota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    For the love of God...how about I just say what so many of you really want to hear:

    Nothing makes a single shred of difference, I'm full of crap. I have no scientists following me around with 1.5 million dollars worth of test equipment therefore everything thing I claim, no matter how small that claim may be, is complete and utter BS (and I am an imaginative moron for having though it in the first place).


    OP...listen to these guys. Nothing you will buy will make a crap-bit of a difference. Buy a GMC bike from Amazon and be happy because this is literally the best riding experience you will ever get. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING will make even the slightest difference in performance no matter what anything tells you...because you will never have the die hard scientific data to prove it.


    There...you guys happy with that response?
    Owned.

    And how do you figure in the value of enjoyment for a particular item? Maybe new 50mm carbon wheels with loud hubs won't make me 2mph faster than my stock wheels but I sure as heck will enjoy riding on them more.
    2005 Cannondale six13 10s SRAM

  18. #43
    Rubber side down Clipped_in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
    I am not gonna get involved in a pissing contest. I'll say, though, that I have seven pairs of modern wheelsets, and they all give relatively different "rides". They range from 50MM to Mavic Open Pros, which are the shallowest wheelset, and I can say wheels are probably where the most enjoyment is on a bike after the frameset. At least for me.
    I think that's a fair assessment. The differences are often subtle, and in some cases may be largely subjection (at least for me). For the OP, the differences can be hard to describe.

    You may want to check out this thread: TESTING NEW WHEELS
    ...Just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road. ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

  19. #44
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    For the love of God...how about I just say what so many of you really want to hear:

    Nothing makes a single shred of difference, I'm full of crap. I have no scientists following me around with 1.5 million dollars worth of test equipment therefore everything thing I claim, no matter how small that claim may be, is complete and utter BS (and I am an imaginative moron for having though it in the first place).


    OP...listen to these guys. Nothing you will buy will make a crap-bit of a difference. Buy a GMC bike from Amazon and be happy because this is literally the best riding experience you will ever get. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING will make even the slightest difference in performance no matter what anything tells you...because you will never have the die hard scientific data to prove it.


    There...you guys happy with that response?
    Check out one of the saddle threads, 'cause you're clearly having a butthurt problem.

    I don't think that anyone is saying that there's zero difference, but people will call out extraordinary claims. Your claim of gaining a couple mph when in the 40 mph range falls in to the extraordinary range. With a combined bike and rider weight of 180 lbs, it'd take an additional ~300 watts or so from the rider to speed up a couple mph, assuming they were coasting at ~40, yet you say you've achieved those gains from the wheels alone. That's a lot of energy savings from a pair of wheels, everything else equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
    Check out one of the saddle threads, 'cause you're clearly having a butthurt problem.

    I don't think that anyone is saying that there's zero difference, but people will call out extraordinary claims. Your claim of gaining a couple mph when in the 40 mph range falls in to the extraordinary range. With a combined bike and rider weight of 180 lbs, it'd take an additional ~300 watts or so from the rider to speed up a couple mph, assuming they were coasting at ~40, yet you say you've achieved those gains from the wheels alone. That's a lot of energy savings from a pair of wheels, everything else equal.

    Ok wait...

    if you guys are going to call BS on me...I'm going to call it on you.

    first off...if you're going to sit there and tell me it takes 300 watts to speed up from 38mph to 40 while flying down a large, steep hill...I'm calling BS. Second...weight is not the only factor when it comes to required power. There are a ton of factors involved in determining how much power it takes to move mass...that 180 LBS you incorrectly estimated isn't floating you know...

    I claim I was seeing an average increase of a couple of mph while coasting down a giant hill...and many of you call BS. Then then come on here and try to use some open ended math (math that is missing a ton a variables btw) and actually attempt to pass that off as some definitive logic?

    "41" indeed...

  21. #46
    Senior Member link0's Avatar
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    High quality tires and a semi aero wheelset can give you quantifiable gains (0.5mph).

  22. #47
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    I find that high end carbon wheels tend to improve front to back soundstage and increase high frequency air. Going back to 32 spoke aluminum clinchers seems to create a shrouding effect.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  23. #48
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Although if you're looking for a punchy low end, a Ti frame is a much better bang for your buck.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  24. #49
    Senior Member RollCNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    I find that high end carbon wheels tend to improve front to back soundstage and increase high frequency air. Going back to 32 spoke aluminum clinchers seems to create a shrouding effect.
    What's your frequency, Kenneth?
    Quote Originally Posted by Man in Black
    Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

  25. #50
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    I think if the rider had a Brooks saddle, that alone adds 2 mph
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

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