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  1. #51
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    What's your frequency, Kenneth?
    OK. You got me. I'm calling pancake bunny on that reference.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  2. #52
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
    I think if the rider had a Brooks saddle, that alone adds 2 mph
    But only going down hill at 40 mph.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  3. #53
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    OK. You got me. I'm calling pancake bunny on that reference.
    R.E.M. 1994. Monster.

    Still not relevant once explained. The proof is in the pudding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man in Black
    Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

  4. #54
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    R.E.M. 1994. Monster.

    Still not relevant once explained. The proof is in the pudding.
    Ah. After seeing them open for The Police in 1983, I never got in to R.E.M. Although I did kind of like Michael Stipe's work with The Golden Palominos.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  5. #55
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    Ah. After seeing them open for The Police in 1983, I never got in to R.E.M. Although I did kind of like Michael Stipe's work with The Golden Palominos.
    So I would have been better off with: You've been letting your feelings show, are you safe Miss Gradenko?

    I saw Sting open for the Grateful Dead, and all he did was The Police tunes. Honestly, that was exactly what I would want him to do. I saw him ten years later in his island phase and it blew wild monkey chunks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man in Black
    Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Herbie53's Avatar
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    Any wheel less than 50 mm in depth is a Hot or Not failure just waiting to happen.
    "Today me will live in the moment, unless it's unpleasant, then me will eat cookie." -Cookie Monster

  7. #57
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    Ok wait...

    if you guys are going to call BS on me...I'm going to call it on you.

    first off...if you're going to sit there and tell me it takes 300 watts to speed up from 38mph to 40 while flying down a large, steep hill...I'm calling BS. Second...weight is not the only factor when it comes to required power. There are a ton of factors involved in determining how much power it takes to move mass...that 180 LBS you incorrectly estimated isn't floating you know...

    I claim I was seeing an average increase of a couple of mph while coasting down a giant hill...and many of you call BS. Then then come on here and try to use some open ended math (math that is missing a ton a variables btw) and actually attempt to pass that off as some definitive logic?

    "41" indeed...
    Uh, actually the numbers were generated with one of the readily available online calculators. I left the rider and bike weight at their default, no additional wind, etc and selected a road bike (with all the defaults for rolling resistance and whatnot) with a rider positioned in the drops. From there, I played with the slope angle until I got a ~40mph figure while coasting. I increased the rider's wattage input until I had a ~2mph gain, which was the result with an additional ~300 watts.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  8. #58
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    I doubt there will ever be unbiased information regarding wheel sets unless someone has devised a blind testing method.

    Expectation bias is also a factor.

    That said, this is my experience. (mostly subjective conjecture)

    My first real bikes were mountain bikes, 26" wheels that proved to be quite durable, and the tire had the most influence on ride characteristics.

    My current setup uses 700c wheels with 28mm tires.

    The stock wheels I started with were absolute rubbish. Machine built, with low quality cup-cone bearings, mystery metal spokes, and heavy v section 28 hole rims.

    The back wheel started breaking spokes, after a few hundred KM. In an effort to try to salvage it, I replaced all of the drive side spokes with high quality stainless spokes, this solved the spoke breakage issue, and lasted about 6000KM until the drive side hub flange cracked, along with multiple hairline stress fractures around rim.

    I now ride on my own hand built wheels, using Sheldon brown's instructions. DT spokes, Alex ACE-19 32 hole rims, and novatec hubs. The difference was night and day, the old wheels rode very harshly, yet still had noticeable lateral flex. The hand built wheels are amazingly smooth. On decent pavement I find myself questioning the tire pressure.

    I'm not sure if there was much of a weight difference, the new wheels seem to launch a bit better off the line, but with this is probably subjective. More confidence probably means more power applied to the wheel.

    My next project will have 26" wheels, I tend to punish my wheels more then most riders I know. I miss bombing down stairs, and jumping curbs etc.

  9. #59
    Senior Member gc3's Avatar
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    It's really all about the decals. deep wheels with big flashy logos just seem to go faster. That's a true fact. I know because i read it on the interwebs a couple of years ago.
    "I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."

    "I understand. I just don't care"

  10. #60
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc3 View Post
    It's really all about the decals. deep wheels with big flashy logos just seem to go faster. That's a true fact. I know because i read it on the interwebs a couple of years ago.
    You obviously haven't followed up on the subject since - new studies show that low-contrast or 'ghosted' decals are 32% faster than their flashy counterparts from a few years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  11. #61
    Super Moderator BillyD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
    Keep speaking against 41 doctrine at your peril.
    He's gotta be a commie, what do you think?
    Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
    Titanium Division

  12. #62
    Senior Member gc3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
    You obviously haven't followed up on the subject since - new studies show that low-contrast or 'ghosted' decals are 32% faster than their flashy counterparts from a few years ago.
    damn, you're right! a real man would have known that...

    "I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."

    "I understand. I just don't care"

  13. #63
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    My wheelset cost me $100 including the shipping. R501 with R500 rims, R501 hubs, bladed spokes. I doubt I'll get good enough in 2014 where my wheels are holding me back. OP asking about $400 vs $2000? Yeah... I'm not even close to his cheapo wheels. When rims wear out, next wheelset probably Shimano RS31, which cost $200. Oh well.

    I would imagine biking is no different than any hobby, diminishing return. Diminishes really fast after some price point. My guess $500... Since can get really great wheels for $500 from wheel warehouse and William's.
    Last edited by zymphad; 01-03-14 at 11:04 PM.

  14. #64
    Senior Member gc3's Avatar
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    whachu talkin bout?

    "I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."

    "I understand. I just don't care"

  15. #65
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc3 View Post
    whachu talkin bout?

    See - THAT compilation makes sense.



    ...but a compilation of Riker sitting down in his unique fashion? Well, it is strangely enthralling, but it still doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  16. #66
    rugged individualist wphamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
    I doubt there will ever be unbiased information regarding wheel sets unless someone has devised a blind testing method.
    ...
    I don't see why not. Coastdown tests could check smokehouse's claim, with decent methodology. Or a team could observe a lot of amateur races, noting everyone's choice of wheels and you could get some information with enough data points. You could monitor power output against speeds on training rides of elite riders, given different wheelsets. You could measure the various mechanical responses in a lab. I think you'd want blind testing only for subjective evaluations - but that's easy isn't it? Just don't let them see the wheels before getting on the bike.

    Now this part is just my opinion: I expect that you're right that we won't see unbiased, analytical comparisons but not due to the technical difficulty of testing. Because it would be expensive, and I suspect that they'd show less difference than is commonly assumed, hence counter-productive for marketing. Without good marketing reasons there is no motivation to spend what it would take.

    I'm still trying to figure out if even, in all situations, a heavier wheelset is necessarily detrimental in hilly routes. Or whether flexier wheels really rob you of power, or impact handling other than in extreme cornering. I know what people say, but people say a lot of things that don't necessarily hold up and that's particularly true of the things they've spent a lot of money for. Like you, I don't hold out much hope for objective testing though.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
    I increased the rider's wattage input until I had a ~2mph gain, which was the result with an additional ~300 watts.
    He could have gotten the same speed increase with a 650 wheel upfront. The slope is increased that way and he could also coast
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  18. #68
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    Do bike shops let you test wheels? I don't see how a biker could possibly determine if it's worth it for him to upgrade from $400 to $2000 wheel if he doesn't ride it for himself. Pretty sure bike parts and your body don't respond to forum posts, you won't magically become faster rider because forum member #2912 says you will be faster on 50mm carbon Zipp blah blah.
    - But then not sure how a bike shop could afford to let you test a $2000 wheel and then decide you don't want it. Since any smart shopper wouldn't pay MSRP at a bike shop when you can get the wheel from some online warehouse at 40-70% off on a clearance sale. I know ALL, every single bike shop around here do not make money on bike sales, it's bike repairs and tune ups from weirdos who don't want to buy a bike tool kit for $50 when tune up costs $70... Boggles my mind.
    Last edited by zymphad; 01-03-14 at 11:38 PM.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
    I don't see why not. Coastdown tests could check smokehouse's claim, with decent methodology. Or a team could observe a lot of amateur races, noting everyone's choice of wheels and you could get some information with enough data points. You could monitor power output against speeds on training rides of elite riders, given different wheelsets. You could measure the various mechanical responses in a lab. I think you'd want blind testing only for subjective evaluations - but that's easy isn't it? Just don't let them see the wheels before getting on the bike.

    Now this part is just my opinion: I expect that you're right that we won't see unbiased, analytical comparisons but not due to the technical difficulty of testing. Because it would be expensive, and I suspect that they'd show less difference than is commonly assumed, hence counter-productive for marketing. Without good marketing reasons there is no motivation to spend what it would take.

    I'm still trying to figure out if even, in all situations, a heavier wheelset is necessarily detrimental in hilly routes. Or whether flexier wheels really rob you of power, or impact handling other than in extreme cornering. I know what people say, but people say a lot of things that don't necessarily hold up and that's particularly true of the things they've spent a lot of money for. Like you, I don't hold out much hope for objective testing though.
    I think feel has much to do with it when it comes to upgrades. I know I've had some upgrades/changes that did nothing…and others that made a significant difference. I think with some items…its impossible to put some hard data on it to prove what offers a better ride or better efficiency. Hell, strapping a man to a bike to get scientific data is inherently flawed…a man is too much of a variable unless you plan on mining an ocean of data in very controlled situations and over a very long amount of time. Something no one will be willing to do over a $500 set of bike wheels.

    That's why I try to come on places like this and post up what I do. I feel my wheels offer a far better ride than stock and I've found I ride faster on them. If this is pure mental BS…so be it…all I have to go on is the data logs of my rides…and little else. I come on here, state what I've found and how I found it…and some simply demand some lab results and label me a fool. Such is life I guess.

    I could make a list of the things I've upgraded…and how as a package they've effected my ride and how they individually have effected my ride. As a whole, I've reduced the weight of my stock bike by 10%…or 1.8lbs off of an originally 18lb setup. That's a good amount, 10% weight reduction on any machine will make a difference. Am I a cat 2 racer now? Nope. Have I better fine tuned my bike to my liking thus enabling me to be happier/more comfortable on the saddle and thus faster? Absolutely.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokehouse View Post
    Am I a cat 2 racer now? Nope.
    A cat 5?

    But then your post is really irrelevant to racing. Comfort and happiness with your purchase is pretty much all you said. Your performance you admit to mental bs.

    Be easier to just say buy what you want. Otherwise, I can understand why someone would want you to substantiate your claims with lab tests, not something frivolous like your logs and how you feel.

    Though as someone who has no intention of racing, I prefer your posts. Feel, comfort is much more important to me than some BS claims for performance increase. Keep posting your experiences

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    A cat 5?

    But then your post is really irrelevant to racing. Comfort and happiness with your purchase is pretty much all you said. Your performance you admit to mental bs.

    Be easier to just say buy what you want. Otherwise, I can understand why someone would want you to substantiate your claims with lab tests, not something frivolous like your logs and how you feel.

    Though as someone who has no intention of racing, I prefer your posts. Feel, comfort is much more important to me than some BS claims for performance increase. Keep posting your experiences
    I'm not a "CAT" anything LOL…I don't race either.

    I tend to try my best to read the OP and their complete question. I saw nothing of racing, or hard statistics so I decided to answer. I feel wheels do make a significant difference in terms of how the bike feels and rides. In my first response, I addressed that and then gave a personal experience.

    If many here want lab tests concerning anything piece of gear…they are barking up the wrong tree. All a vast majority here can offer is personal experiences…which are sometimes less frivolous than one might think. You can't measure a psychological effect very easily…and a happy/comfortable rider will perform better than one that is miserable.

  22. #72
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    I can imagine blindfolded riders.

    Reminds me of a (Hans Ray?) video involving monkeys riding a bicycle.

    When I really think about it, I bet most non-competitive riders have limiting factors that come into play well before the weight of their wheels.

    As Peter white says: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Wheels.asp

    Let's be very clear about something. Rims for racing bikes, such as the Mavic Open Pro and Velocity Aerohead, are made for people who use bicycles in races. That's why they're called racing bikes; because people actually race with them! To be a competitive road racer, you will not want to weigh much more than about 160 lbs. Even at that weight, you'll find yourself at a significant disadvantage in many road races, at least those with any hills. Since the manufacturers of racing rims are aware of this fact, they don't bother making these rims strong enough for 230 lb cyclists, regardless of whether those 230 lb cyclists have the curious notion that it would be a good idea to ride a bike with "racing rims" and 23mm tires.

  23. #73
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    The best place to improve one's bicycle is to improve the wheels and tyres to reduce unsprung weight, but there is a point of diminishing returns where the dollars spent yield less and less improvement.

  24. #74
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
    He could have gotten the same speed increase with a 650 wheel upfront. The slope is increased that way and he could also coast
    DAMN! How could I have forgotten about that source of free energy?!
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHBR View Post
    I can imagine blindfolded riders.

    Reminds me of a (Hans Ray?) video involving monkeys riding a bicycle.

    When I really think about it, I bet most non-competitive riders have limiting factors that come into play well before the weight of their wheels.

    As Peter white says: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Wheels.asp
    Off topic…but I don't get that one either. Beginning my "journey" at well over 265lbs, I refused to even think of getting a modern road bike until I could drop weight. I began riding a SL2 Roubaix in 2012 at 200lbs. I bought my Tarmac at 170lbs last winter.

    I have dousing who is a large fella…6' 3", 250+. He keeps wanting to get on my bike for a test ride and I won't let him, he gets all offended. I don't have the heart to tell him he's WAY too large for my equipment.

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