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Thread: No shame...

  1. #51
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    So what is your definition?
    It's a specific manufacturing process.

    You might as well give one
    You're better off not using it at all.

    as people are not going to stop writing it.
    Then they will continue to confuse each other.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
    Was just at the local performance picking up my new Kurt Kinetic and there was a guy with his bike asking about carbon bars. Well the bike was the following (according to the stickers):

    Pinarello Dogma
    Campagnolo Bora Ultra carbon wheels
    Shimano 105

    That wasn't even the kicker. The Boras were normally laced unlike the traditional Campy lacing on of course 105 no less. Then to top it all off when a random guy who clearly knew it was a Chinarello asked him where he got the frame the dude told him that he "special ordered it from Italy". No shame...
    Who is this guy? Someone should buy him a drink for playing it good.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    It's a specific manufacturing process.
    Incorrect. "Open molding" is a specific manufacturing process.

    When BFers use the term "open mold" they are never referring to it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    On Faceoff they always seem to have trouble opening their molds.

  5. #55
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Incorrect. "Open molding" is a specific manufacturing process.

    When BFers use the term "open mold" they are never referring to it.
    You say that like it's news that the 41 is full of people with strong opinions who don't know what they're talking about.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    In regards to bike frames, yes. But as a stand alone sentence, steel is the only alloy of the three. Titanium and aluminum are chemical elements.

    So for clarity, from this day hence bicycle frames must be properly referenced as "titanium alloy", "aluminum alloy", or "steel". So let it be written. So let it be done.

    Edit: those uncomfortable with "steel" have permission to use "iron alloy" in its stead.
    While all steels are iron alloys, all iron alloys are not steels. Since the properties of the iron alloys used to make bicycles are so dependent upon the common ingredient, carbon, that makes them steel, I don't think it is sensible to call such materials simply iron alloys. Avoiding the universally understood term for these iron-carbon alloys, to my way of thinking suggests the exclusion of them from the class. In other words in the vernacular if you don't say steel, you don't mean steel. At least IMO.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    You say that like it's news that the 41 is full of people with strong opinions who don't know what they're talking about.
    While I agree all the people quoted below are strongly opinionated, I personally disagree that any of them don't know what they are talking about when it comes to bicycle parts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Lemond-Time in the first paragraph.


    As to bikes that APPEAR to be the same, the previous poster nailed it. Frames can appear to be the same, they may even come from the same open mold, but the devil is in the details such as materials and layup schedule. Those two factors, more than anything else, will determine the charactaristcs and quality of the frame.


    This is the dilema the consumer faces as there is no way of knowing (weight is an indicator but not fullproof).


    Also, OP, you seem to be picking on one brand. Reasons?
    Quote Originally Posted by coachboyd View Post
    I would say that all of us mentioned above are losing sales to direct from China. . .although a lot of times it's from customers that would think poorly of our companies anyway. There seems to be an increase in thinking that "the man" is ripping off the customer and marking up products way more that they should be. They want so desperately to rationalize that by going direct to a "manufacturer" that they'll get the same product for pennies on the dollar. I've seen people claiming the companies selling on Alibaba are also producing for Pinarello, Specialized, and Zipp (hint: they're not).


    It doesn't help that there are wheel companies in the US starting up every week that buy these wheels, slap stickers on them, and ship them back out (adding their $400 charge for doing this). I see companies like this start up all the time, and they usually stay around for about half a year. I was very upfront when we used open mold stuff for our wheels, but we also had a lot of value added benefits that demanded a higher price. As the quality of our product goes up and as we transitioned into only using proprietary parts that we developed the price has gone up, but there's also a LOT of extra expenses. Here's a teaser for you guys, we are working on products for 2015 and 2016 that will be priced even higher. . .we are also looking at a lower price option (ooh, teaser fun).
    Companies that claim they are just cutting out the middle men by selling direct and having good ties with manufacturers who sell open mold on Alibaba are losing their advantage. There's a premium to having local US support, but if a wheelset is showing up at your door and you slap stickers on them, then the same people you are buying from are going to undercut you. For companies that continue to innovate and look for ways to add value to their product, there's a wonderful place right now in the cycling industry. I think John may have figured this out and having been in the industry for a while I'm sure we'll see him come back strong. Even though he's a competitor, it's sad to see any business close and I still like to root for all of us little guys out there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    Nope....


    LKisten guys - there's a lot of manufacturers out there making good rims. The beauty of my arrangement is that I am not locked down to any 1 manufacturer. I don't brand my stuff - trying to pass it off as though I have a plant of my own. I tell you who made it, for the most part. I can only believe that you thought they were different because you must have seen some older rims. I used to source from Gigantex....same as Token, Neuvation, Cole, HED, etc. I am no longer using them. I have found a different rim manufacturer. These are all open molds. This means that anyone who wants to can put in an order for rims made off of that mold. It is owned by the factory - not the company who commissioned it.


    What I am using right now looks eerily similar to everyone else that has been mentioned. It's because they work.


    I personally make a small number of wheels. Each and every single one goes through my hands personally. I am a rider, racer, enthusiast. I might build with the same "rim" that a lot of people use, but my reputation is on each and every single one. I know other builders here feel the same way.


    1. There is a review coming up in a large US publication that will compare 50-60mm tubulars seen as "value" tubular wheels to all of the big names out there using a lot of lab data to show the exact difference....not to mention the 1/2 to 1/3 price. November, Soul, Boyd, and myself all fall into this category....how do I know? Let's just say I have a horse in this race.
    2. Personally I am opening my own mold for cross season this fall. Sending the wire within a day or two. It will not be an open mold. There will be features that define it specifically as a PSIMET rim. Do you think that will stop threads on here from claiming - "oh that's just some generic 'Chinese' rim"? No, it won't.


    I find that people in this market are educated and usually middle to upper middle class. Very few are the "just do it for me" type you find in triathlons (for example). All seem to have this affinity for wanting to somehow "find out the truth" about products as though there is some sort of secret in the cycling industry, or that they are being "dupped" in some way - being played for a sucker, or that this industry does something every single other industry in the world DOESN'T do. Well...if you feel this way - here's your reward. Feel better? Now....the wheels are still the same as they were and the prices haven't changed. Which do you want?
    Now, I take it that they all generally agreed on their meaning of "open mold" and believe that I understood that meaning. So my only news is that you are still incorrect.

  8. #58
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    While I agree all the people quoted below are strongly opinionated, I personally disagree that any of them don't know what they are talking about when it comes to bicycle parts:









    Now, I take it that they all generally agreed on their meaning of "open mold" and believe that I understood that meaning. So my only news is that you are still incorrect.
    You're funny.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    You're funny.
    Not as funny as this guy:

    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    "Open mold" isn't the right term for the unbranded China direct frames on ebay. "Open mold" means that the factory owns the molds and is able to sell them without contractual restrictions. Whether you get open mold product or not on ebay is entirely unknown. The reason they're cheap is that they have no provenance.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Nachoman's Avatar
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    lol
    .
    .

    Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

  11. #61
    RidingLikeCrazy! rangerdavid's Avatar
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    You had me at Dogma and 105. What a joke.
    *********************************

    Rangerdavid

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    Riding the mountains of North Carolina

    I do today what you don't , so I can do tomorrow what you can't

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  12. #62
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Not as funny as this guy:
    He just gave you the exact definition of what open mold means. I don't understand what you are getting at.
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  13. #63
    Senior Member datlas's Avatar
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    My nominee for 41 thread of the week.
    Quote Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
    never underestimate the idiocy of BF.

  14. #64
    he said member ls01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by datlas View Post
    My nominee for 41 thread of the week.
    I dunno, there's some stiff competition out there.......
    Originally posted by Whyfi "Who needs thumbs when you can lick yourself?"

  15. #65
    Senior Member datlas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls01 View Post
    I dunno, there's some stiff competition out there.......
    That's what she said...
    Quote Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
    never underestimate the idiocy of BF.

  16. #66
    he said member ls01's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Whyfi "Who needs thumbs when you can lick yourself?"

  17. #67
    Senior Member longbeachgary's Avatar
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    I have no idea what any of you are talking about. Is it a real Pin or not?

  18. #68
    Senior Member datlas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbeachgary View Post
    I have no idea what any of you are talking about. Is it a real Pin or not?
    Probably not.
    Quote Originally Posted by RUOkie View Post
    never underestimate the idiocy of BF.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    He just gave you the exact definition of what open mold means. I don't understand what you are getting at.
    I took that quote from a different thread. If you read this one from the beginning you will see he has been insisting that everyone else on BF, including you, has been misusing the term, which he defines as a manufacturing process (see post 51). As you probably know, that is actually "open molding", and it turns out he has previously used and defined "open mold" the same way it is generally used.

  20. #70
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    It's a specific manufacturing process.
    It is not a process. As he said it means the factory owns the mold (not the customer) and they can sell products from the mold to anyone they chose.

    We deal with both open and proprietary molds on a daily basis.
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  21. #71
    Redefining Lazy Slackerprince's Avatar
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    Open mold, or not, it sounds "hot" and I'm interested.
    I'd probably pull the 105 and slap some fake Campy on there, though.


    S
    Too fat for Castelli

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