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  1. #1
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Michelin just changed PRO4 Endurance 25mm?

    I just received some more PRO4 Endurance 25mm from Wiggle. These tires are very different from the tires I purchased last year. Last year's tires measured 27.9mm inflated. These tires from Wiggle measure 26.2mm inflated. Last year's tires were a dream to mount. These new tires are extremely tight. I can get them on with my hands, just barely, but I can't get them off just with my hands. They're the tightest road tires I've ever mounted. Bummer! They also came coated with some sort of white waxy substance which I had to sand off before daring to run them on the road. Bummer! Since they are a smaller tire, the parts of the tire are narrower; especially the center hard rubber wear strip is much narrower, putting the sticky, soft, easier flatting cornering rubber in contact with the road when upright at normal inflation pressures. Bummer!

    Anyone else notice this? Or did I get some bummer out of spec tires from Wiggle? They were on sale, only $30.

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    I haven't ordered any P4 Endurance yet. But the last Michelin tires I got were a pile of closeout Krylions from the old Bonktown when the P4 stuff came out. They too were covered with the waxy crap, and were the only Michelins I ever noticed it on. I didn't bother scraping it, just road them that way with no issues. And it actually helped my Kurt Road Machine from slipping which had been issue.

  3. #3
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    I just mounted up a reasonably new pro4 service course and it also had that waxy crap on it... it feels kind of sticky to me though. I ignored it and just rode on them, no issues so far. I didn't check the width though.

  4. #4
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    So OP you are annoyed because your new tires were very close to the stated size and were protected against oxidation and ageing by an antioxidant coating which wears off as soon as you start riding on them. The real question is why didn't the old tires exhibit these same features, eh?

  5. #5
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    So OP you are annoyed because your new tires were very close to the stated size and were protected against oxidation and ageing by an antioxidant coating which wears off as soon as you start riding on them. The real question is why didn't the old tires exhibit these same features, eh?
    I liked the width they were better. They were a perfect tandem tire. I'm really annoyed that they changed the diameter. The old tires fit fine and had no problems. The coating bothers me. I've never owned/stored a tire that suffered from oxidation. In fact some people store their tires for a year or two because that seems to toughen the rubber. I had to take our tandem out on a fast rain ride with a new tire with some waxy crap on it. You bet that made me nervous.

    All in all, for me they ruined a perfect tire, best I've ever used. The old tires got a lot of lauds on this forum, so I don't think I was the only fan.

  6. #6
    L-I-V-I-N dtrain's Avatar
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    I've got a stash of Pro Race 3's in that super wide '25mm' size. Actually a little too wide for my tastes. Maybe we can work something out.
    "The older you do get, the more rules they're gonna try to get you to follow. You just gotta keep livin', man, L-I-V-I-N." - Wooderson

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  7. #7
    Senior Member mkadam68's Avatar
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    Sorry if nit-picking, and please take with a grain of salt, but in my head, 0.3mm--or 1/100th of the whole tire--is a stretch for "much narrower" status. Have you ridden them? Can you tell the difference? It'd be somewhat amazing to me if I could (dead-end and all that).
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    ...Last year's tires measured 27.9mm inflated. These tires...measure 26.2mm
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    ...especially the center hard rubber wear strip is much narrower.

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  8. #8
    L-I-V-I-N dtrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
    Sorry if nit-picking, and please take with a grain of salt, but in my head, 0.3mm--or 1/100th of the whole tire--is a stretch for "much narrower" status. Have you ridden them? Can you tell the difference? It'd be somewhat amazing to me if I could (dead-end and all that).
    Isn't that a 1.7mm difference?
    "The older you do get, the more rules they're gonna try to get you to follow. You just gotta keep livin', man, L-I-V-I-N." - Wooderson

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  9. #9
    Senior Member mkadam68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtrain View Post
    Isn't that a 1.7mm difference?
    Well alright then!! Called out! Should I delete the post or let it stand as a constant reminder to all to triple-check before posting?




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  10. #10
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
    Sorry if nit-picking, and please take with a grain of salt, but in my head, 0.3mm--or 1/100th of the whole tire--is a stretch for "much narrower" status. Have you ridden them? Can you tell the difference? It'd be somewhat amazing to me if I could (dead-end and all that).
    Well, it's this way . . .
    Tires are specced as some width, in road tires that's in mm. So a 700 X 23 should caliper at total inflated width of 23mm, a 25 at 25mm, etc. Usually they don't, though. Many tires are wider than spec, though some are narrower. As I posted, the difference in calipered width between the two tires in question is 1.7mm. The difference between a 23 and a 25 is 2mm. Yes, I've ridden them, and you bet I can feel it. I have to pump to a higher pressure to get the same drop. The width isn't noticeable, but the increased pressure is. Most folks notice a difference between running 23s and 25s.

    I don't know where you got the thing about "0.3mm--or 1/100 of the whole tire," whatever that means.

    BTW I just went out and measured the difference in the width of the center strip - it's 3mm narrower. From 15mm to 12mm or 20% narrower on a decrease in total tire width of 6%. Of course I can't feel that, but these tires will probably be easier to cut and less flat resistant.

  11. #11
    Senior Member mkadam68's Avatar
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    Well, ignore my previous post at this point--I don't know how to subtract.

    The 0.3 mm was what I mistakenly thought was the difference between the tires you listed (poor math). Then, on a 30mm tire (I rounded to make the math easier--go figure!), a 0.3mm reduction is 1/100th of the total width of 30mm's.

    But, if the reduction in center strip is 3mm, that's a big change for only a 1.7mm reduction in overall tire size.

    Questions about whether you could feel it were genuine, thinking I couldn't feel it myself.

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  12. #12
    Middle-Aged Member MikeyBoyAz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtrain View Post
    Isn't that a 1.7mm difference?
    Interestingly enough and likely to not make any difference, but my MTB MAXXIS Ardent and Ikon tires started small and after about 72 hours stretched/relaxed to a larger size. Might you [OP] have measured your tyres after they stretched before, but now are measuring them before they could take shape completely?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyBoyAz View Post
    Interestingly enough and likely to not make any difference, but my MTB MAXXIS Ardent and Ikon tires started small and after about 72 hours stretched/relaxed to a larger size. Might you [OP] have measured your tyres after they stretched before, but now are measuring them before they could take shape completely?
    this

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Well, it's this way . . .
    Tires are specced as some width, in road tires that's in mm. So a 700 X 23 should caliper at total inflated width of 23mm, a 25 at 25mm, etc. Usually they don't, though.
    The rim plays a role in the "calipered" width (and yes, I understand you are comparing measurements on the same rim). I have Vittoria Open Corsa Evos on my two road bikes. With HED C2 rims, they caliper in at around 27mm. On my carbon clinchers, more like 24mm.

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    I've read that the 25mm pro 4 tend to run wider, so does that mean the 23mm run bigger also?

  16. #16
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyBoyAz View Post
    Interestingly enough and likely to not make any difference, but my MTB MAXXIS Ardent and Ikon tires started small and after about 72 hours stretched/relaxed to a larger size. Might you [OP] have measured your tyres after they stretched before, but now are measuring them before they could take shape completely?
    Well, I just measured them again after 2-1/2 days and 70 miles. They are larger, a whole mm, now at 27.2mm. The center stripe is still narrower, but I feel better anyway. Maybe I'll have to mount and remount each new tire at home a few times to get the diameter stretched enough to facilitate fixing flats on the road. I really don't like using tire irons when I'm away from home.

    Thanks, all.

  17. #17
    Middle-Aged Member MikeyBoyAz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Well, I just measured them again after 2-1/2 days and 70 miles. They are larger, a whole mm, now at 27.2mm. The center stripe is still narrower, but I feel better anyway. Maybe I'll have to mount and remount each new tire at home a few times to get the diameter stretched enough to facilitate fixing flats on the road. I really don't like using tire irons when I'm away from home.

    Thanks, all.
    You can also try talc. This makes the inside of the bead a little less tacky and rolls over the rim a bit smoother. [Been doing this for a few years now, works very well with new tires especially]
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  18. #18
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    I just got a pair of 700x25 Pro 4 Endurance tires from PBK, in black. They're replacing Krylions which have finally started to wear out. No stripe to worry about the decreased width. I just hope they still have the two-compound tread. BTW, I doubt that the softer tread contributes to increased flatting; the layer underneath the rubber is what keeps the bad stuff out.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    I liked the width they were better. They were a perfect tandem tire. I'm really annoyed that they changed the diameter. The old tires fit fine and had no problems. The coating bothers me. I've never owned/stored a tire that suffered from oxidation. In fact some people store their tires for a year or two because that seems to toughen the rubber. I had to take our tandem out on a fast rain ride with a new tire with some waxy crap on it. You bet that made me nervous.

    All in all, for me they ruined a perfect tire, best I've ever used. The old tires got a lot of lauds on this forum, so I don't think I was the only fan.
    No, you don't have problems with tires that have been aged because they are protected. High end tires have always in my experience had a protective coating that flakes off during initial mounting and use. What you experienced was a little softer. Maybe a new formula. But make no mistake, the coating is valuable and part of what you are paying for. Would it be slippery in the wet? That is hard to imagine: that a tire company would do something like that. But I can't say no. As for the width, I can't say why the change. All in all a truer dimension is more reliable, i.e. you buy what you really want. It sounds like you might be happier with 28s, but it is too hard to return to Wiggle to exchange them.

    Just checking, you did buy the previous tires new and install them yourself right? They didn't come on the bike. Otherwise that could explain their being easier to mount and not having the coating. Maybe also the change in width as you are already seeing expansion over time. Please don't take offense; it just suddenly seemed that all the differences (except the appearance) could be due to the previous tires having been long installed when you first encountered them. I see you say you purchased the old ones. I am not generally a conspiracy theorist, but if they were pre-owned, mounted, hung up for a while, then returned to the store, that could explain all the differences. Somebody else could have cleaned them off and stretched them for you. Just brain-storming.

  20. #20
    Rubber side down Clipped_in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    ...The last Michelin tires I got were a pile of closeout Krylions from the old Bonktown when the P4 stuff came out. They too were covered with the waxy crap, and were the only Michelins I ever noticed it on. I didn't bother scraping it, just road them that way with no issues.
    Me too, but I have six brand spanking new P4 Endurance 23mm's sitting there waiting for my last set of Krylions to succumb to my massive power output.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    I had to take our tandem out on a fast rain ride with a new tire with some waxy crap on it. You bet that made me nervous.
    I haven't noticed it to be a problem...

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Well, I just measured them again after 2-1/2 days and 70 miles. They are larger, a whole mm, now at 27.2mm.
    I wondered if that might not happen. Glad you're a little more satisfied with them. I've had such good results with Michelin tires and tubes over the years.
    ...Just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road. ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

  21. #21
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    The white waxy stuff is mold release. It won't harm the tires grip or performance. it is on there to keep the tire from sticking to the inside of the mold while making them.

    Good on the width. The 27mm 25's were getting old. I had way too many frame clearance problems using them and could only use them on cross bikes. Finally a good 25mm tire instead of Conti.

    The tight bead - every tire will be getting tighter. Sorry. Customers are asking more and more for setups they can use as tubeless because they read on some forum that tubeless was better. Result - tires and rims with tighter fitting beads and hook systems. It will never go back the other way.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipped_in View Post
    Me too, but I have six brand spanking new P4 Endurance 23mm's sitting there waiting for my last set of Krylions to succumb to my massive power output.
    I have similar troubles that started about 2 seasons ago. First I bought a few GP4Ks plus a couple 4 Seasons from PBK on a sale to stock up. Then the P3R and Krylion closeout came so I grabbed 3 & 6 respectively. I also needed some tubulars, though, so I made another PBK order for some Vittorias but also included some more GP4Ks because I somehow forgot about my previous stock. And then this summer the prizes at the local weeknight training crit was GP4Ks pairs and I managed to win a couple of those.

    I don't think I will ever get to try Pro 4s or the new GP4ks because by the time I run through the current glut they will both be on to their 5 series. Or 6.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    The white waxy stuff is mold release. It won't harm the tires grip or performance. it is on there to keep the tire from sticking to the inside of the mold while making them.

    Good on the width. The 27mm 25's were getting old. I had way too many frame clearance problems using them and could only use them on cross bikes. Finally a good 25mm tire instead of Conti.

    The tight bead - every tire will be getting tighter. Sorry. Customers are asking more and more for setups they can use as tubeless because they read on some forum that tubeless was better. Result - tires and rims with tighter fitting beads and hook systems. It will never go back the other way.
    We can always count on you for the straight dope. Thanks. I thought my antioxidant BS would fly, but it was running into some serious headwinds. Good to have the real deal.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but installed width also depends on the width between the hooks on the rims. Wider rims have wider installed tire widths. Nominally 23mm wide Pro4s measure 23 mm on traditional rims and 25mm on wider HED C2 rims.
    Ride more. Fret less.

  25. #25
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    I can't tell if I don't care enough about these small nuances or if some of you care too much...

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