Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-13-14, 11:16 PM   #1
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
Thread Starter
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Orangevale CA
Bikes: '76 Paramount, 02 Hardrock, '98 C'Dale XR800, '04 Burley Samba, '15 Priority Classic
Posts: 6,221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Exponential group set cost

I was pricing out a group for my hypothetical bike and noticed something... the cost is exponential by level. These are the prices for the basic groups at http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk

I admit faking this a little. Without the Ultegra Di2 there is a "missing link" at that price level. They don't presently have Dura Ace Di2 listed as a group, that's why it's missing. Campagnolo follows a similar trend though not as cleanly. They don't offer SRAM.


Last edited by Darth Lefty; 01-14-14 at 08:30 AM. Reason: date fix
Darth Lefty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 05:37 AM   #2
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Obviously they keyed the pricing directly to the relative speed increase so it seems pretty logical.
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 05:45 AM   #3
Homebrew01
Super Moderator
 
Homebrew01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ffld Cnty Connecticut
Bikes: Old Steelies I made, Old Cannondales
Posts: 20,031
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
We need a Campagnolo chart so I can calculate my increased average speed if I upgrade.
__________________
Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike
Homebrew01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 05:52 AM   #4
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Campy produces art, so the rules of physics do not apply.
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 06:26 AM   #5
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Posts: 8,720
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
Campy produces art, so the rules of physics do not apply.
You cannaugh break the laws of physics, Cap'n!!
RollCNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 06:29 AM   #6
sced
South Carolina Ed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Greer, SC
Bikes: Family pool bikes - 73 Holdsworth Super Mistral, 79(?) Macario, 86 Bianchi Brava, 93 Viner Nemo, 07 Bottecchia Euro Team, 07 Windsor Fens, 07 Tommasso Mistral
Posts: 3,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
It must (inversely) track the percentages of people that exhibit increasingly irrational behavior.
sced is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 06:35 AM   #7
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
You cannaugh break the laws of physics, Cap'n!!
You know that part in Dead Poets Society when they tear the chart out of their books? Campy did that.
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 06:52 AM   #8
gc3 
Falls Downalot
 
gc3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: DC
Bikes: Now I Got Two
Posts: 3,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
what an amazing discovery has been made here!



__________________
"I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."
"I understand. I just don't care"
"I don't give a f*ck" if they remember me at all" (F. Zappa)

Last edited by gc3; 01-14-14 at 07:00 AM.
gc3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 07:49 AM   #9
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,592
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
If ever there were a visual representation of diminishing returns, I think you have found it! Wouldn't it be more impressive on linear axes though with the big curve emphasizing the exponential nature?
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:03 AM   #10
CharlyAlfaRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Looks linear to me.
CharlyAlfaRomeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:26 AM   #11
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
Looks linear to me.
As I said earlier, the price chart is in direct proportion to the available speed increase. And as we all know, power increases as a square of the speed. So there is your exponent.

Except Campy, which will go up in value after you die because it is art.
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:31 AM   #12
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
Thread Starter
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Orangevale CA
Bikes: '76 Paramount, 02 Hardrock, '98 C'Dale XR800, '04 Burley Samba, '15 Priority Classic
Posts: 6,221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Campagnolo. Again faked a little to make it look more convincing by leaving out the non-EPS versions


Last edited by Darth Lefty; 01-14-14 at 08:41 AM.
Darth Lefty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:35 AM   #13
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,592
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
Looks linear to me.
Perhaps you are joking, but if not the y-axis is exponential, powers of 10.
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:37 AM   #14
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,592
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
As I said earlier, the price chart is in direct proportion to the available speed increase. And as we all know, power increases as a square of the speed. So there is your exponent.

Except Campy, which will go up in value after you die because it is art.
I know you are joking, but just to be correct, increasing exponentially and increasing as the square or any power of a value are not the same.
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:42 AM   #15
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I know you are joking, but just to be correct, increasing exponentially and increasing as the square or any power of a value are not the same.
You cannot be serious.
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 08:42 AM   #16
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
Thread Starter
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Orangevale CA
Bikes: '76 Paramount, 02 Hardrock, '98 C'Dale XR800, '04 Burley Samba, '15 Priority Classic
Posts: 6,221
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
If ever there were a visual representation of diminishing returns, I think you have found it! Wouldn't it be more impressive on linear axes though with the big curve emphasizing the exponential nature?
Everything is more convincing on a log scale
Darth Lefty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:04 AM   #17
CharlyAlfaRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
As I said earlier, the price chart is in direct proportion to the available speed increase. And as we all know, power increases as a square of the speed. So there is your exponent.

Except Campy, which will go up in value after you die because it is art.
Didn't see your comment until now but I stand by my statement. The chart itself is linear with the parameters the OP gave, exponential with the qualifier you added.

+1 on the Campy bit.
CharlyAlfaRomeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:07 AM   #18
CharlyAlfaRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Perhaps you are joking, but if not the y-axis is exponential, powers of 10.
The increase between the low and high values isn't even an exponential increase, 100 squared = 10,000. the increases in value between gruppos is not even close.

Last edited by CharlyAlfaRomeo; 01-14-14 at 09:11 AM.
CharlyAlfaRomeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:18 AM   #19
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
The increase between the low and high values isn't even an exponential increase, 100 squared = 10,000. the increases in value between gruppos is not even close.
Only the Campy chart is for gruppos. The other is for groupsets or groups, as crass as that sounds.
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:21 AM   #20
CharlyAlfaRomeo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Bikes:
Posts: 619
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lol. Well we are nitpicking here so I guess it's only fair.
CharlyAlfaRomeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:46 AM   #21
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,592
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
Didn't see your comment until now but I stand by my statement. The chart itself is linear with the parameters the OP gave, exponential with the qualifier you added.

+1 on the Campy bit.
The relationship depends upon the numbers not the way the chart looks. The numbers he provided (fudged as they are) define an exponential relationship. You can plot them on any kind of axes you want, and get different looking graphs. But it is still exponential.
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:50 AM   #22
rpenmanparker 
Senior Member
 
rpenmanparker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Bikes: 1990 Romic Reynolds 531 custom build, Merlin Works CR Ti custom build, super light Workswell 066 custom build
Posts: 21,592
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1537 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlyAlfaRomeo View Post
The increase between the low and high values isn't even an exponential increase, 100 squared = 10,000. the increases in value between gruppos is not even close.
Exponential is the change from 100 to 1,000, i.e. 10e2 to 10e3 on one axis while a linear change occurs on the other axis. Actually since the x-axis is qualitative, not quantitative, there is no numerical relationship between them at all. So I will LOL too. But I get the gist of what OP was trying to say. Like you would number the groups (group sets, gruppos...) 1, 2, 3, ,4, 5...Then you plot that against the prices and get an exponential relationship. There is no squared relationship required for this situation to be exponential by definition.
rpenmanparker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:57 AM   #23
canam73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Haunchyville
Bikes:
Posts: 6,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Exponential is the change from 100 to 1,000, i.e. 10e2 to 10e3 on one axis while a linear change occurs on the other axis. Actually since the x-axis is qualitative, not quantitative, there is no numerical relationship between them at all. So I will LOL too. But I get the gist of what OP was trying to say. Like you would number the groups (group sets, gruppos...) 1, 2, 3, ,4, 5...Then you plot that against the prices and get an exponential relationship. There is no squared relationship required for this situation to be exponential by definition.
Sram = 0, Shimano = 10, Campy = Beauty x infinity(infinity).
canam73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 09:59 AM   #24
Looigi
Senior Member
 
Looigi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 8,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
The high cost of cachet.
Looigi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-14, 10:04 AM   #25
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,738
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
It's almost like someone thought out what they wanted the price to be. How dare they not make it the cost plus $1 or $2 so they can make money....
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:40 PM.