A super stiff frame - good or bad?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
A super stiff frame - good or bad?
New frame materials will most likely be much stiffer than todays carbon fiber frames. Those who appear to have the best potential right now seems to be buckypaper and nanocellulose.
But hey.
Would a super stiff frame be a good ride?
Will it result in shorter times and/or less loss of energy?
What's your experiences or take on this?
Here is a thread about buckypaper
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/478326
But hey.
Would a super stiff frame be a good ride?
Will it result in shorter times and/or less loss of energy?
What's your experiences or take on this?
Here is a thread about buckypaper
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/478326
#2
Mr. Dopolina
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,217
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked 117 Times
in
41 Posts
Do you have any idea how long it woulda ale even a commercially viable material like this to trickle down to the lowly bicycle industry?
I'll give you a hint: decades. The bicycle industry is a tiny, minuscule blip on the radar in terms of the amounts of exotic material used.
I'll give you a hint: decades. The bicycle industry is a tiny, minuscule blip on the radar in terms of the amounts of exotic material used.
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Do you have any idea how long it woulda ale even a commercially viable material like this to trickle down to the lowly bicycle industry?
I'll give you a hint: decades. The bicycle industry is a tiny, minuscule blip on the radar in terms of the amounts of exotic material used.
I'll give you a hint: decades. The bicycle industry is a tiny, minuscule blip on the radar in terms of the amounts of exotic material used.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Do you have any idea how long it woulda ale even a commercially viable material like this to trickle down to the lowly bicycle industry?
I'll give you a hint: decades. The bicycle industry is a tiny, minuscule blip on the radar in terms of the amounts of exotic material used.
I'll give you a hint: decades. The bicycle industry is a tiny, minuscule blip on the radar in terms of the amounts of exotic material used.
Once nanotubes, or any of those other exotic materials, are truly commercialized anywhere, if they can offer tangible advantage over CF composites at anything approaching reasonable cost (say, $5000 for a frame), people will start building those in their garages.
#5
ka maté ka maté ka ora
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: wessex
Posts: 4,423
Bikes: breezer venturi - red novo bosberg - red, pedal force cg1 - red, neuvation f-100 - da, devinci phantom - xt, miele piste - miche/campy, bianchi reparto corse sbx, concorde squadra tsx - da, miele team issue sl - ultegra
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Some would say an overly stiff frame is a dead feeling frame. But if you can put out gobs of power, you likely won't say that.
Last edited by pdedes; 02-06-14 at 07:01 AM. Reason: spelling
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#7
Mr. Dopolina
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 10,217
Bikes: KUUPAS, Simpson VR
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 149 Post(s)
Liked 117 Times
in
41 Posts
I don't see what's so "lowly" about bicycle industry. It's really all about value vs. cost. Some bike manufacturers were mixing small quantities of nanotubes into their CF composites as far back as 2005, to increase strength and stiffness. They just don't seem to be all that useful (or as useful as we hoped) in the form in which we can mass-produce them (that is, unaligned carbon nanotube dust). (And even in that form they are still very expensive, from $1000/kg and up.)
Once nanotubes, or any of those other exotic materials, are truly commercialized anywhere, if they can offer tangible advantage over CF composites at anything approaching reasonable cost (say, $5000 for a frame), people will start building those in their garages.
Once nanotubes, or any of those other exotic materials, are truly commercialized anywhere, if they can offer tangible advantage over CF composites at anything approaching reasonable cost (say, $5000 for a frame), people will start building those in their garages.
With exotic materials there is always a scarcity and the bicycle industry is pretty far down on the list of potential customers.
Then you need to have people in place who actually know how to utilize the materials. And then they need time to best apply it to bike parts. That's a lot of money and a lot of time. Very few brands have pockets that deep.
#8
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
New frame materials will most likely be much stiffer than todays carbon fiber frames. Those who appear to have the best potential right now seems to be buckypaper and nanocellulose.
But hey.
Would a super stiff frame be a good ride?
Will it result in shorter times and/or less loss of energy?
What's your experiences or take on this?
Here is a thread about buckypaper
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/478326
But hey.
Would a super stiff frame be a good ride?
Will it result in shorter times and/or less loss of energy?
What's your experiences or take on this?
Here is a thread about buckypaper
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/478326
Since your question was about ride quality and material stiffness, keep in mind that a stiffness of a given material does not have to correlate to ride quality. I know to the layperson that seems absurd, but that is the reality. Take Al. Anybody who has ridden a variety of Aluminum bikes and then a steel bike and a carbon bike, knows that 'generally' an Aluminum bike has a stiffer ride. What is the stiffness of Aluminum? Aluminum has the lowest modulus of elasticity of any of the three materials. Translation? Al is a pretty flexible material. So why do Aluminum frames ride so stiff? A couple of reasons. In order for a frame to be strong enough aka not permanently deform under load, quite a bit of Al has to be used. Why can this be permitted? Because aluminum per unit volume is quite light. So more Aluminum is used to increase strength because Al isn't very strong either and weight is still manageable and what is the result of more Al? Stiffness. Also to prevent permanent deformation aka failure, Aluminum tubes are made much wider and thinner...in fact very similar to carbon fiber. Wider tube sections increase section stiffness and resistance to failure during bending.
Any potential bicycle material has to pass the litmus test of:
1. Stiffness
2. Frameset weight
3. Strength...will it break?
4. Fatigue life?...will repetive cyclic loading cause the frame to crack.
And then there is cost of the material and cost to turn that material into a bike frame.
It is the combination of the above properties, not any individual material property, that determine a worthy material for a bicycle including Ti some like.
HTH.
Last edited by Campag4life; 02-06-14 at 06:24 AM.
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Take some engineering classes if you want to understand.
Since your question was about ride quality and material stiffness, keep in mind that a stiffness of a given material does not have to correlate to ride quality. I know to the layperson that seems absurd, but that is the reality. Take Al. Anybody who has ridden a variety of Aluminum bikes and then a steel bike and a carbon bike, knows that 'generally' an Aluminum bike has a stiffer ride. What is the stiffness of Aluminum? Aluminum has the lowest modulus of elasticity of any of the three materials. Translation? Al is a pretty flexible material. So why do Aluminum frames ride so stiff? A couple of reasons. In order for a frame to be strong enough aka not permanently deform under load, quite a bit of Al has to be used. Why can this be permitted? Because aluminum per unit volume is quite light. So more Aluminum is used to increase strength because Al isn't very strong either and weight is still manageable and what is the result of more Al? Stiffness. Also to prevent permanent deformation aka failure, Aluminum tubes are made much wider and thinner...in fact very similar to carbon fiber. Wider tube sections increase section stiffness and resistance to failure during bending.
Any potential bicycle material has to pass the litmus test of:
1. Stiffness
2. Frameset weight
3. Strength...will it break?
4. Fatigue life?...will repetive cyclic loading cause the frame to crack.
And then there is cost of the material and cost to turn that material into a bike frame.
It is the combination of the above properties, not any individual material property, that determine a worthy material for a bicycle including Ti some like.
HTH.
Since your question was about ride quality and material stiffness, keep in mind that a stiffness of a given material does not have to correlate to ride quality. I know to the layperson that seems absurd, but that is the reality. Take Al. Anybody who has ridden a variety of Aluminum bikes and then a steel bike and a carbon bike, knows that 'generally' an Aluminum bike has a stiffer ride. What is the stiffness of Aluminum? Aluminum has the lowest modulus of elasticity of any of the three materials. Translation? Al is a pretty flexible material. So why do Aluminum frames ride so stiff? A couple of reasons. In order for a frame to be strong enough aka not permanently deform under load, quite a bit of Al has to be used. Why can this be permitted? Because aluminum per unit volume is quite light. So more Aluminum is used to increase strength because Al isn't very strong either and weight is still manageable and what is the result of more Al? Stiffness. Also to prevent permanent deformation aka failure, Aluminum tubes are made much wider and thinner...in fact very similar to carbon fiber. Wider tube sections increase section stiffness and resistance to failure during bending.
Any potential bicycle material has to pass the litmus test of:
1. Stiffness
2. Frameset weight
3. Strength...will it break?
4. Fatigue life?...will repetive cyclic loading cause the frame to crack.
And then there is cost of the material and cost to turn that material into a bike frame.
It is the combination of the above properties, not any individual material property, that determine a worthy material for a bicycle including Ti some like.
HTH.
In order to get a better ride quality, the frames will be designed with flex. This is nothing new, but with harder materials it gets more difficult to design desired flex. As you don't want to get too thin and thus brittle, it's more safe to overcompensate and end up with a over stiff frame. On the other hand computers and software will also evolve and FEM analysis will also be better. So in the long run it might get easier to design a good race bicycle.
Last edited by 1987; 02-06-14 at 08:03 AM.
#10
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Thank you for your input. And I understand what you are lecturing. But no matter of the initial costs, the next material will most most likely be much stronger, lighter and stiffer than the materials used today.
In order to get a better ride quality, the frames will be designed with flex. This is nothing new, but with harder materials it gets more difficult to design desired flex. As you don't want to get too thin and thus brittle, it's more safe to overcompensate and end up with a over stiff frame. On the other hand computers and software will also evolve and FEM analysis will also be better. So in the long run it might get easier to design a good race bicycle.
In order to get a better ride quality, the frames will be designed with flex. This is nothing new, but with harder materials it gets more difficult to design desired flex. As you don't want to get too thin and thus brittle, it's more safe to overcompensate and end up with a over stiff frame. On the other hand computers and software will also evolve and FEM analysis will also be better. So in the long run it might get easier to design a good race bicycle.
To give you a general example, lets take a garden variety carbon fiber frameset. If a company were to take that exact frame geometry and material and reduce material thickness by 1/2 it would not only lower the weight of the frame by about that much but also dramatically make the frame much more flexible. That frame made out of the same stiff carbon would be whippy. So why don't manufacturers do that? Because the frame will fail if going over a curb with a 220 lb'er riding it. So if a material were developed even stiffer than carbon, in theory if it was strong enough, it could be made much thinner resulting in a softer and not stiffer ride. Hope that makes sense.
Last edited by Campag4life; 02-06-14 at 08:31 AM.
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#12
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
But, any sort of reasonable philosophical conversation can only be had with a solid understanding of the relationships that most don't understand. A stiff material can create a flexible frame. Most will never understand that.
#13
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,303
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 727 Times
in
372 Posts
Nibali complained about the Cdale EVO when he first got it because he thought it felt dead.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#15
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,303
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 727 Times
in
372 Posts
Lowly as in puny, a non player. The amount of carbon the entire bicycle industry consumes is a fraction of a percent of next to nothing. We just done rate.
With exotic materials there is always a scarcity and the bicycle industry is pretty far down on the list of potential customers.
Then you need to have people in place who actually know how to utilize the materials. And then they need time to best apply it to bike parts. That's a lot of money and a lot of time. Very few brands have pockets that deep.
With exotic materials there is always a scarcity and the bicycle industry is pretty far down on the list of potential customers.
Then you need to have people in place who actually know how to utilize the materials. And then they need time to best apply it to bike parts. That's a lot of money and a lot of time. Very few brands have pockets that deep.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#16
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Honestly there is much more research underway on garden variety material derivatives...not space age strong materials. This is for the simple reason of cost effectiveness, resource availability and manufacturability. Derivative or incremental existing material changes always get the most resource attention in terms of R&D because they are the most feasible.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 2,844
Bikes: '13 Spech Roubaix SL4 Expert
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I know this might be a very vague question, but it is often said in the cycling industry that you can have 2 of these things in a product. Light, affordable, durable. Taking affordable out of the equation. What is the best all around frameset money can buy? I mean, extremely light yet stiff enough for pro-like power outputs, aero, comfortable etc. I hope I am not opening pandoras box here. And when I mean, money no object I am not talking S Works money.. I am talking if you had $20k for a frameset +.
__________________
Cat 6 going on PRO....
Cat 6 going on PRO....
#19
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#20
Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,558
Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Liked 2,179 Times
in
1,469 Posts
Then there's always the argument that super stiff fatigues so long term power is lost
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Would a super stiff frame be a good ride? I am inclined to think so, provided it doesn't tend to a'splode of course. It's a second order consideration I think, behind such things as durability, weight, cost etc.
Will it result in shorter times and/or less loss of energy? Probably
What's your experiences or take on this? I've got one frame that's really stiff because it's a cheap mass-produced thing made with maybe half again more lower grade aluminum and is designed with wide tubes. It feels kind of dead.
BTW, stiff can be designed into a frame. There are several material properties that go into the selection of frame material, and technology has to trickle down from other industries before we see it in cycling.
Will it result in shorter times and/or less loss of energy? Probably
What's your experiences or take on this? I've got one frame that's really stiff because it's a cheap mass-produced thing made with maybe half again more lower grade aluminum and is designed with wide tubes. It feels kind of dead.
BTW, stiff can be designed into a frame. There are several material properties that go into the selection of frame material, and technology has to trickle down from other industries before we see it in cycling.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,813
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 501 Post(s)
Liked 626 Times
in
370 Posts
I know this might be a very vague question, but it is often said in the cycling industry that you can have 2 of these things in a product. Light, affordable, durable. Taking affordable out of the equation. What is the best all around frameset money can buy? I mean, extremely light yet stiff enough for pro-like power outputs, aero, comfortable etc. I hope I am not opening pandoras box here. And when I mean, money no object I am not talking S Works money.. I am talking if you had $20k for a frameset +.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Actually, bicycle manufacturers can afford to use expensive carbon fiber, because they need very little of it.
Here's an interesting fact. Did you notice that you almost never see carbon fiber in cars? Even though it seems like a great product for automaking? Well, car manufacturers are very interested, and they are watching the industry closely, but it's still too expensive for mass-market cars and that's why it still only goes into exotics. You need 2-3 pounds of carbon fiber and epoxy to make a bicycle frame that sells somewhere on the order of $1000. With this cost-benefit ratio you can splurge on expensive stuff. An automaker wishing to make the body of a car completely out of CF instead of aluminum needs 500 pounds of raw materials, and he can't afford to raise the price by more than a few thousand bucks. In automaking, CF is simply not competitive with aluminum above $5/lb or so.
Commercial aircraft are closer to bikes than to cars in this respect though. It takes 80,000 lbs of carbon fiber and epoxy to build a 787 and the resulting aircraft costs $200 million ($2,500 per pound of composite materials).
You can buy a linear yard of 50" wide, 300 gsm "aerospace grade" (T700) carbon fiber (that works out to about 0.77 pounds) on eBay right now for $18+shipping.
Here's an interesting fact. Did you notice that you almost never see carbon fiber in cars? Even though it seems like a great product for automaking? Well, car manufacturers are very interested, and they are watching the industry closely, but it's still too expensive for mass-market cars and that's why it still only goes into exotics. You need 2-3 pounds of carbon fiber and epoxy to make a bicycle frame that sells somewhere on the order of $1000. With this cost-benefit ratio you can splurge on expensive stuff. An automaker wishing to make the body of a car completely out of CF instead of aluminum needs 500 pounds of raw materials, and he can't afford to raise the price by more than a few thousand bucks. In automaking, CF is simply not competitive with aluminum above $5/lb or so.
Commercial aircraft are closer to bikes than to cars in this respect though. It takes 80,000 lbs of carbon fiber and epoxy to build a 787 and the resulting aircraft costs $200 million ($2,500 per pound of composite materials).
You can buy a linear yard of 50" wide, 300 gsm "aerospace grade" (T700) carbon fiber (that works out to about 0.77 pounds) on eBay right now for $18+shipping.
#24
Professional Fuss-Budget
H'm, cyclists obsessing over stiff tubes. I wonder why?
Actually, most high-end CF frames are already at maximum stiffness, e.g. they barely deflect at the BB. They're also very light. Even the marketing materials are starting to acknowledge this.
At the risk of blasphemy, I think today's high-end bicycles are already very close to their optimal forms. Further improvements with that über-snazzy buckyball nanotube Unobtanium-framed bike will be vanishingly small... even as they strive to make your bank account vanish faster.
Go ride a Super Six and decide for yourself.
At the risk of blasphemy, I think today's high-end bicycles are already very close to their optimal forms. Further improvements with that über-snazzy buckyball nanotube Unobtanium-framed bike will be vanishingly small... even as they strive to make your bank account vanish faster.
Would a super stiff frame be a good ride?
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 2,844
Bikes: '13 Spech Roubaix SL4 Expert
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 297 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts