Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-22-14, 05:32 PM   #301
OldsCOOL
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760
Posts: 11,129
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 06:15 PM   #302
big chainring 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wilmette, IL
Bikes:
Posts: 5,647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
This is a good look
big chainring is online now  
Old 03-22-14, 06:24 PM   #303
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Posts: 8,717
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
Do you like to start your car with a crank?
Why do you have such a need to disparage DT shifters? None of the folks supporting DT have slammed integrated shifters, only said that there are some nicities with the older system. I have owned both, and would consider owning either again in the future. No one told you to abandon your preferred shifters, or said you were wrong to prefer them.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 07:13 PM   #304
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Why do you have such a need to disparage DT shifters? None of the folks supporting DT have slammed integrated shifters, only said that there are some nicities with the older system. I have owned both, and would consider owning either again in the future. No one told you to abandon your preferred shifters, or said you were wrong to prefer them.
I have had bikes with non index shifters and they were not easy to use. Many times you would skip a cog and the shifts took longer. To somehow say they are better is just false. It is like someone saying that a 1950's car with manual choke was easier to start than a 2014 car with computer controlled electronic fuel injection.......just not true! You might say that riding your old bike or driving an old car is fun/different but that is far as you can go.

The OP was purchasing a road bike to ride and you guys are riding down memory lane.

I have a basic dislike for the hipster that puts style in front of function. The other day I saw this guy riding with leather loafers with no socks. Unless he was riding around the block that is just plan dumb and his feet will end up with blisters. It is about the same as the kids that wear pants half way down their ass. They can't even walk but they think they are cool.
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 07:22 PM   #305
OldsCOOL
Senior Member
 
OldsCOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760
Posts: 11,129
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
It is about the same as the kids that wear pants half way down their ass. They can't even walk but they think they are cool.
I'd love to see them trying to ride.
OldsCOOL is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 07:40 PM   #306
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Posts: 8,717
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
With indexed 9 or 10 speed DT shifters, you won't miss a shift or have a noisey or problematic system. I built a bike last year with 10 speed Dura-Ace DT's and it shifted beautifully, all 105 components otherwise. There was nothing nostalgic or memory lane or hipster about it.

Your comment that anyone not on integrated shifters is a hipster focusing on style is both false and insulting. I primarily ride a single speed, on fast group rides and centuries and whatever I want to do. There is nothing hipster about me or it. It is a simple bike, and riding it is simple. It is actually fairly easy to do group rides on an SS, and where people think it is nuts, if they tried it they would understand. I own geared bikes, build gear bikes, and ride what I like. I honestly think many of the "what $400 bike should I buy" threads would be well served with a road geometry single speed, and just ride the dang bike. But I would be ridiculed in the former 41 for that comment, not because it is wrong, but because folks ridicule what they don't understand.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 07:48 PM   #307
big chainring 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wilmette, IL
Bikes:
Posts: 5,647
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
I have had bikes with non index shifters and they were not easy to use. Many times you would skip a cog and the shifts took longer. To somehow say they are better is just false. It is like someone saying that a 1950's car with manual choke was easier to start than a 2014 car with computer controlled electronic fuel injection.......just not true! You might say that riding your old bike or driving an old car is fun/different but that is far as you can go.

The OP was purchasing a road bike to ride and you guys are riding down memory lane.

I have a basic dislike for the hipster that puts style in front of function. The other day I saw this guy riding with leather loafers with no socks. Unless he was riding around the block that is just plan dumb and his feet will end up with blisters. It is about the same as the kids that wear pants half way down their ass. They can't even walk but they think they are cool.
Well at 300 posts in, the original question has been answered and commented on to death. To each his own. Whatever system you like, doesn't really matter does it. I just think there is more rider input with DT shifters. A bit of finesse to hit the gears just right. Brifters requires no skill to operate. Sort of a disconnect from the chain and gears and ultimately rider. I like the mechanical aspects of my bike. And the more I am in control of it the better. I would really like a bike with Cambio Corsa system. But I'm the type that has no interest in wattage output and heart rate tracking and all the other stuff that I refer to as modern cycling nonsense.
big chainring is online now  
Old 03-22-14, 07:52 PM   #308
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Your comment that anyone not on integrated shifters is a hipster focusing on style is both false and insulting. I primarily ride a single speed, on fast group rides and centuries and whatever I want to do. There is nothing hipster about me or it. It is a simple bike, and riding it is simple. It is actually fairly easy to do group rides on an SS, and where people think it is nuts, if they tried it they would understand. I own geared bikes, build gear bikes, and ride what I like. I honestly think many of the "what $400 bike should I buy" threads would be well served with a road geometry single speed, and just ride the dang bike. But I would be ridiculed in the former 41 for that comment, not because it is wrong, but because folks ridicule what they don't understand.
If it is false why do racers not ride single gear bikes? Why did mankind even invent cars and bikes with multiple gears? Are you saying that can ride a single gear up and down hills as efficiently? I think you are just bragging that you are such good shape that you can do it; you must be very special or just like to pen tall tales on the 41. I think you are insulting our intelligence.

Last edited by v70cat; 03-22-14 at 07:58 PM.
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 08:07 PM   #309
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Posts: 8,717
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
If it is false why do racers not ride single gear bikes? Why did mankind even invent cars and bikes with multiple gears? Are you saying that can ride a single gear up and down hills as efficiently? I think you are just bragging that you are such good shape that you can do it you must be very special.
I am not meaning to brag by any means, and I think that I work far harder on a geared bike than I do on an SS. But the difference isn't that large, and I don't race. I didn't notice the OP saying he wanted to race. I don't recall anyone saying get DT's to race. If asked about racing, I would say get a bike with at least Tiagra, to have 10 speed cassettes for wheel swaps.

Honestly, I bought my SS to commute on, and I hated it. My geared bike felt faster, and easier, and I could get my heart rate up and keep it there for "training". But then I broke my geared bike, and started doing long rides on the SS, and finally appreciated it. You spin as fast as is comfortable, and then don't sweat it. You climb as best you can, and distract yourself by enjoying the scenery. There is a massive simplicity that changed my rides from " training" to "enjoying". But nobody gets that until they get it. I didn't get it until forced.

I really don't mean to argue, and have not said that any system is bad. But to compare DT's to crank starts, or even a manual choke, is meant to be inflammatory. My snow blower has a manual choke, and it seems to work well. If someone has reasonable expectations, then reasonable systems can match them fine.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 08:34 PM   #310
RJM
I'm doing it wrong.
 
RJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,534
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
If it is false why do racers not ride single gear bikes? Why did mankind even invent cars and bikes with multiple gears? Are you saying that can ride a single gear up and down hills as efficiently? I think you are just bragging that you are such good shape that you can do it; you must be very special or just like to pen tall tales on the 41. I think you are insulting our intelligence.
Who cares about what racers do? Sheesh, why even bring that up in a thread like this....the op isn't racing, they are buying their first road bike?

Besides...you ever watch any track racing? Plenty of racers riding fixed gear/single speed stuff.


There is nothing at all hard about operating friction shifters anyway. If you had trouble with them, don't use them...it's a simple solution. The pros are shifting to electronic groupsets....better run out and buy one.
RJM is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 09:36 PM   #311
joe932
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Bikes:
Posts: 82
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
I have had bikes with non index shifters and they were not easy to use. Many times you would skip a cog and the shifts took longer.
The downtube shifters on new bikes are index shifters.

Last edited by joe932; 03-22-14 at 10:10 PM.
joe932 is offline  
Old 03-22-14, 10:10 PM   #312
rjones28 
Mostly Harmless
 
rjones28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chittenango, NY
Bikes: Have two wheels
Posts: 32,236
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
If it is false why do racers not ride single gear bikes? Why did mankind even invent cars and bikes with multiple gears? Are you saying that can ride a single gear up and down hills as efficiently? I think you are just bragging that you are such good shape that you can do it; you must be very special or just like to pen tall tales on the 41. I think you are insulting our intelligence.
I rode a fairly hilly century with @RollCNY. He was on a single speed and my bike had DT shifters. I will say that he went up the hills more efficiently than me, but it wasn't because he was on a single speed.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
Amateur bike racing is just a fun thing, as far as I know, there's no penalty for not winning.
rjones28 is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 12:27 AM   #313
Long Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Go Ducks!
Bikes:
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
It is about the same as the kids that wear pants half way down their ass. They can't even walk but they think they are cool.
It just isn't. But don't stop!
Long Tom is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 06:34 AM   #314
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
I rode a fairly hilly century with @RollCNY. He was on a single speed and my bike had DT shifters. I will say that he went up the hills more efficiently than me, but it wasn't because he was on a single speed.
More effectively or efficiently?
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 06:36 AM   #315
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe932 View Post
The downtube shifters on new bikes are index shifters.
That is true but I was responding to this:
I like the feel of shifting downtube shifters. Fishing about, dialing in the right cable tension, listening for the chain to quiet and sync up on the cog. Feels like....... victory.
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:18 AM   #316
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,335
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
I have had bikes with non index shifters and they were not easy to use. Many times you would skip a cog and the shifts took longer. To somehow say they are better is just false. It is like someone saying that a 1950's car with manual choke was easier to start than a 2014 car with computer controlled electronic fuel injection.......just not true! You might say that riding your old bike or driving an old car is fun/different but that is far as you can go.

The OP was purchasing a road bike to ride and you guys are riding down memory lane.

I have a basic dislike for the hipster that puts style in front of function. The other day I saw this guy riding with leather loafers with no socks. Unless he was riding around the block that is just plan dumb and his feet will end up with blisters. It is about the same as the kids that wear pants half way down their ass. They can't even walk but they think they are cool.
You could also compare it to cars with manual vs automatic transmissions. Performance wise there is no question automatics are better but I still prefer to use a clutch and enjoy shifting myself. There is a satisfaction to be had making a clean downshift coming into a corner at high speed with the brakes on full. It's much easier and consistent to flip a paddle with your finger but less satisfying.

Not everything we buy is necessary or made because it makes our lives better.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:27 AM   #317
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Posts: 8,717
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
More effectively or efficiently?
Probably both and neither. From a pure mechanical stand point, a single speed is ever so slightly more efficient: straight chain line, less chain, no RD tension. From a biomechanics "conservation of effort" far less efficient or sustainable.

As to effectively, it depends on the course. On certain terrain, I am as fast on the SS as geared because of the forced conservation of the SS. On other courses it isn't close.

But why does any of this matter? Do you only ride to be the most efficient and effective? If someone races, I get that. For anyone else, I get it sometimes. Yes it is fun to be efficient. And yes it is fun to ride just to ride. But as I said earlier, I did not understand how pleasant a "less efficient" bike, DT or SS or hybrid, is until I was forced into it.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:29 AM   #318
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
You could also compare it to cars with manual vs automatic transmissions. Performance wise there is no question automatics are better but I still prefer to use a clutch and enjoy shifting myself. There is a satisfaction to be had making a clean downshift coming into a corner at high speed with the brakes on full. It's much easier and consistent to flip a paddle with your finger but less satisfying.

Not everything we buy is necessary or made because it makes our lives better.
I agree with your comment, not sure how it relates to the OP.
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:34 AM   #319
RollCNY
Speechless
 
RollCNY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Central NY
Bikes: Felt Brougham, Lotus Prestige, Cinelli Xperience,
Posts: 8,717
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Performance wise there is no question automatics are better but I still prefer to use a clutch and enjoy shifting myself.
Based on what criteria is an automatic better performance? Not gas mileage, because it is only the past few years that auto mileage has been able to match standard (Subaru being the sole notable exception, and is based on the AWD transfer system and not the gear box). In maintenance costs, autos have always lagged. In 0-60, autos have always lagged. Simply because only 3.6% of cars sold in the US (2012 data) are standard is no indication of superiority of automatics.
RollCNY is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:34 AM   #320
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Probably both and neither. From a pure mechanical stand point, a single speed is ever so slightly more efficient: straight chain line, less chain, no RD tension. From a biomechanics "conservation of effort" far less efficient or sustainable.

As to effectively, it depends on the course. On certain terrain, I am as fast on the SS as geared because of the forced conservation of the SS. On other courses it isn't close.


But why does any of this matter? Do you only ride to be the most efficient and effective? If someone races, I get that. For anyone else, I get it sometimes. Yes it is fun to be efficient. And yes it is fun to ride just to ride. But as I said earlier, I did not understand how pleasant a "less efficient" bike, DT or SS or hybrid, is until I was forced into it.
I don't race but want to be competitive and think that efficient equipment allows me to ride further and quicker.

Almost any car will do the speed limit why do people need more hp since they "don't race"?
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:41 AM   #321
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Based on what criteria is an automatic better performance? Not gas mileage, because it is only the past few years that auto mileage has been able to match standard (Subaru being the sole notable exception, and is based on the AWD transfer system and not the gear box). In maintenance costs, autos have always lagged. In 0-60, autos have always lagged. Simply because only 3.6% of cars sold in the US (2012 data) are standard is no indication of superiority of automatics.
Lets break it down from your own statement:
1) "only the past few years that auto mileage has been able to match standard", so today they are better but you live in the past?
2)"only 3.6% of cars sold in the US (2012 data) are standard is no indication of superiority of automatics", I guess everyone is crazy? You are part of the special 0% that drive one speed cars?
v70cat is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 07:53 AM   #322
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,335
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
Based on what criteria is an automatic better performance? Not gas mileage, because it is only the past few years that auto mileage has been able to match standard (Subaru being the sole notable exception, and is based on the AWD transfer system and not the gear box). In maintenance costs, autos have always lagged. In 0-60, autos have always lagged. Simply because only 3.6% of cars sold in the US (2012 data) are standard is no indication of superiority of automatics.
I was talking about performance, i.e. shifting speed, perfect engine speed adjustment on downshifts etc. This applies to performance cars, not all automatics.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 08:00 AM   #323
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,335
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
I agree with your comment, not sure how it relates to the OP.
Downtube shifters are analogous to manual transmissions. They work fine and won't detract from your enjoyment of bike riding, but if you're racing you'll generally be at a disadvantage with downtube shifters. Similarly, if you're racing cars and everyone else doesn't have to use a clutch you'll be at a disadvantage if you do.

Most people prefer auto transmissions and brifters.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 08:08 AM   #324
gregf83 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Bikes:
Posts: 7,335
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
I don't race but want to be competitive and think that efficient equipment allows me to ride further and quicker.
You get tired reaching down to shift once in a while? I don't have any bikes left with downtube shifters but I'd be hard pressed to make an argument that I couldn't ride as far or as fast with downtube shifters. I don't race a lot but in the two wins I had downtube shifters wouldn't have made a difference.
gregf83 is offline  
Old 03-23-14, 08:12 AM   #325
v70cat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Bikes: S5 VWD
Posts: 3,601
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Downtube shifters are analogous to manual transmissions. They work fine and won't detract from your enjoyment of bike riding, but if you're racing you'll generally be at a disadvantage with downtube shifters. Similarly, if you're racing cars and everyone else doesn't have to use a clutch you'll be at a disadvantage if you do.

Most people prefer auto transmissions and brifters.
Greg , your statements are reasonable and rational I think we are on the same page. Our friend Roll however is trying to tell us that he can ride up and hills as effectively and efficiently on a single speed bike as a bike with gears. That is just false!

Next he will be telling us that his bike got a flat and he has found that he run almost as fast and has given up cycling. This is followed by the fact that his house was lost and he prefers being a caveman. Why farm when you can hunt? Why have tools when you have two hand and stones.

Does he drink a lot?

Last edited by v70cat; 03-23-14 at 08:21 AM.
v70cat is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:00 PM.