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  1. #126
    Portland Fred banerjek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Or, and this is a radical suggestion, but if you don't feel comfortable enough on a bike to take your hands off the bars to shift, learn to get comfortable enough on your bike to take your hands off the bars to shift. If you can't ride with one hand off the bars, comfortably and smoothly and without thought, and are not willing to learn, then you should stop riding your bike, for your own safety. Because, you will crash eventually, and it'll be a hard crash. 100% guaranteed.
    And how could such a rider even wave? It's bad when someone can't even make it into the ranks of the Freds.

    Anyone who can't ride without taking a hand off the bars to shift also can't to signal and probably gets destabilized very easily. Definitely not good candidates for road riding or even the MUP.

  2. #127
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    Can't we all just get along? Retroshift!

    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  3. #128
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    Can't we all just get along? Retroshift!
    Nope. You're wrong too.

    Gripshift or death.

    1980ish Free Spirit Sunbird fixed * 1996 Mongoose IBOC Zero-G * 1997 KHS Comp * 1990-ish Scapin * Lemond Buenos Aires Triple

  4. #129
    Senior Member Motolegs's Avatar
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    OP, I own a road bike with shifters like the Super Mirage, and a Mirage with the DT shifters.

    Both shifting systems are good! Different sure than the MTB systems you are used to, they'll likely feel awkward at first. Just practice till your choice becomes second nature. I learned on DT's then got my hands on brifters later. Look at it this way, practicing means riding, and riding means fun! I don't think you can lose with either choice, the Mirage has thus far exceeded expectations. The Super Mirage might be a tad trickier to set up out of the box, but I can't imagine it would be too tough. I'd like to hear an update when you get your new bike!

  5. #130
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
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    Interesting thread, perhaps I can chime in. I learned on friction stem shifters, moved to friction DT shifters, then to indexed DT shifters and then to both Shimano STI's and Campagnolo Ergos. I also tried Microshift, and I have had Sora's, RSX, 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and Campy 8sp Chorus, Veloce, and 10-sp Centaur and Record. I am not inexperienced, and I lead a newbie group in the spring of entry-level riders, most of them on DT bikes, but some on bikesdirect.com bikes (that I usually end up fixing). I'll add that I ride the drops 99% of the time, but I do realize that most people don't. I still ride both types of shifters.

    DT shifters require you to be aware of where you are, your terrain, and think ahead. You learn to anticipate shifts, because getting behind the curve on that has immediate consequences, especially on hills. My personal belief is that it's good to learn cycling with DT shifters. You have to actually think, and you learn to control your core while shifting. It does not take long to learn to shift on the fly. You have a lot of choices in brake levers, as well. DT shifters are insanely easy to set up and maintain, and keep your bars clear of annoying cables. I've used many, even Syncro's (we won't go there) and never had a problem. I've even used the 10-sp Dura Ace DT shifters, and they are precise, light, and very accurate.

    Brifters remove the need for as much anticipation, awareness of your terrain, and thinking ahead. A rider who moves from DT shifters to brifters of any kind is often more prepared for hills, descents, corners, etc, because of the experience gained on DT shifters. The learning curve for those new to cycling is so short on brifters that novice mistakes can be compensated for, have less consequence, and the novice rider sticks around to ride another day, instead of giving up. Aesthetically, they are unsightly for the most part, and unless the cables are routed along the bar (with some loss of crispness), they look like alien feeding tubes. This does not matter to people new to the sport, nor should it. They take it as it comes, and if it's that much easier to ride brifters than DT shifters, then do it.

    Now, for specifics. I have ridden Sora's both in the 8-sp DT shifters and the 8-sp and 9-sp plastic brifter versions. As a drop rider, I simply mounted the brifters down in front so I could reach the thumb button, but that pretty much ruled out any braking or shifting from the tops. I found the 8-sp Sora DT shifters to be crisp, clean, and worked much better as far as accurate shifting, ease of installation and adjustment. The particular model of brifters on the OP's choices are, to me, a waste of $50. They break fairly easily, in my experience. If the OP has to choose between the two bikes he mentioned, I'd recommend the DT shifted model. Go for the best bike for the money of the two, and worry about moving to brifters in a couple of years, when you really know what you want.

    Lot of good points in the thread, and I agree with some, but not on those Sora's. The OP would be best served, overall, with a good used $400 bike, and there are many in this area, with brifter shifting that are a lot higher quality than those Moto's. However, if he wants to go new, that's his choice. 2 years from now, whichever bike he chooses, he'll be either out of the sport or getting a better bike. I'd hate to see him give up the sport if DT shifting appears too hard. I've seen it happen with my novice group; they get frustrated and give it up.
    Last edited by RobbieTunes; 03-04-14 at 07:13 PM.

    Robbie ♪♫♪...☻

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  6. #131
    Senior Member iamtim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    Holy hell, those things are real! http://www.retroshift.com

    ...

    I think I kinda want a pair.

  7. #132
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    If i take my hands of the handlebars I might crash.
    If I can't shift from the drops I might crash.
    I shift with mental mind control.

  8. #133
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big chainring View Post
    If i take my hands of the handlebars I might crash.
    If I can't shift from the drops I might crash.
    I shift with mental mind control.
    ...from the couch.



    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  9. #134
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets View Post
    Nope. You're wrong too.

    Gripshift or death.

    Egawds. I remember those. Mid-90s mountainbike tech to the rescue!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    ...from the couch.



    Davenport, and I don't mean Iowa. Unless you're Jeff Bradley.
    Last edited by big chainring; 03-04-14 at 07:49 PM.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Well... perhaps it looks like omniscience some... But it's really just eyeballs and knowing what to look for.
    Really?

  12. #137
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    Do you think people should only learned to drive on cars with manual shifts?

  13. #138
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
    Do you think people should only learned to drive on cars with manual shifts?
    I do.
    "Even people opposed to religion need calm minds and compassion to make their work more effective."

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM View Post
    I do.
    I bet you also think steel is real and carbon sucks.

  15. #140
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Steel is better than carbon in my experience with riding, but that doesn't have anything to do with gaining a life-skill like being able to drive a manual shift car.
    "Even people opposed to religion need calm minds and compassion to make their work more effective."

  16. #141
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoota View Post
    I can't imagine some of the new riders I've seen lately try to learn with DT shifters. Goodness, I would try to be miles away from them.
    And GET OFF MY LAWN!!

    :-)
    The biggest fools are those who cannot suffer fools gladly. -Perzuki

  17. #142
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
    Interesting thread, perhaps I can chime in. I learned on friction stem shifters, moved to friction DT shifters, then to indexed DT shifters and then to both Shimano STI's and Campagnolo Ergos. I also tried Microshift, and I have had Sora's, RSX, 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and Campy 8sp Chorus, Veloce, and 10-sp Centaur and Record. I am not inexperienced, and I lead a newbie group in the spring of entry-level riders, most of them on DT bikes, but some on bikesdirect.com bikes (that I usually end up fixing). I'll add that I ride the drops 99% of the time, but I do realize that most people don't. I still ride both types of shifters.

    DT shifters require you to be aware of where you are, your terrain, and think ahead. You learn to anticipate shifts, because getting behind the curve on that has immediate consequences, especially on hills. My personal belief is that it's good to learn cycling with DT shifters. You have to actually think, and you learn to control your core while shifting. It does not take long to learn to shift on the fly. You have a lot of choices in brake levers, as well. DT shifters are insanely easy to set up and maintain, and keep your bars clear of annoying cables. I've used many, even Syncro's (we won't go there) and never had a problem. I've even used the 10-sp Dura Ace DT shifters, and they are precise, light, and very accurate.

    Brifters remove the need for as much anticipation, awareness of your terrain, and thinking ahead. A rider who moves from DT shifters to brifters of any kind is often more prepared for hills, descents, corners, etc, because of the experience gained on DT shifters. The learning curve for those new to cycling is so short on brifters that novice mistakes can be compensated for, have less consequence, and the novice rider sticks around to ride another day, instead of giving up. Aesthetically, they are unsightly for the most part, and unless the cables are routed along the bar (with some loss of crispness), they look like alien feeding tubes. This does not matter to people new to the sport, nor should it. They take it as it comes, and if it's that much easier to ride brifters than DT shifters, then do it.

    Now, for specifics. I have ridden Sora's both in the 8-sp DT shifters and the 8-sp and 9-sp plastic brifter versions. As a drop rider, I simply mounted the brifters down in front so I could reach the thumb button, but that pretty much ruled out any braking or shifting from the tops. I found the 8-sp Sora DT shifters to be crisp, clean, and worked much better as far as accurate shifting, ease of installation and adjustment. The particular model of brifters on the OP's choices are, to me, a waste of $50. They break fairly easily, in my experience. If the OP has to choose between the two bikes he mentioned, I'd recommend the DT shifted model. Go for the best bike for the money of the two, and worry about moving to brifters in a couple of years, when you really know what you want.

    Lot of good points in the thread, and I agree with some, but not on those Sora's. The OP would be best served, overall, with a good used $400 bike, and there are many in this area, with brifter shifting that are a lot higher quality than those Moto's. However, if he wants to go new, that's his choice. 2 years from now, whichever bike he chooses, he'll be either out of the sport or getting a better bike. I'd hate to see him give up the sport if DT shifting appears too hard. I've seen it happen with my novice group; they get frustrated and give it up.
    Informative and logical. Thank you.

    I went the other way. Started with brifters on an ultralight carbon bike. Later moved to restoration of older steelies. I have 3 of them in the garage now, all with stem-mounted shifters; 2 friction and 1 indexed (Shimano). As you say, I quickly learned to anticipate my shifts. And with the friction shifters, I found it also helps to shift decisively, then back the lever off by a 1/2 mm or so . . . which seems to "lock it in" somehow.

    I may convert one or more of the stem shifters to downtube. I WON'T convert the steelies to brifters, for reasons of cost and ugliness (as you say, it looks like someone is tube feeding an alien).

    But which do I prefer for reasons of safety, speed and convenience? Brifters, hands down.
    The biggest fools are those who cannot suffer fools gladly. -Perzuki

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    Why would you say it's more likely bars are too high? I ride in the drops as much as I possibly can. My stem is shunted as low as it can go and it's a -10 degree stem too. I would assume anyone who rides in the drops a lot is looking to ride faster and more efficiently, trying to be more aerodynamic. Not assume their bike isn't fitted properly.
    I agree. What I mean is riding in the drops for many people is to go faster. That means a pretty low position. That also isn't the most comfortable for just riding along.
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  19. #144
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
    Really?
    Umm, what else would it be?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  20. #145
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
    Do you think people should only learned to drive on cars with manual shifts?
    Can't now, since manual gear shifts are going the way of the Dodo. But it does put the driving student in better touch with their car. How is this difficult to understand?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  21. #146
    Junior Member GeorgeLeslie's Avatar
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    I have both (Brifters on my CF and down tube indexed on my old Steel Fuji Ace. At times I have to think twice to remember which I am currently using, but once in the right mode for the right bike, it is a automatic.

    That said. I do find the brifters. much more intuitive to operate with no change of hand prosition required. If money is no object, go with Brifters. If you can appreciate the $50 savings, down tube shifers are more than adequate.
    It makes perfect sense, If you don't think about it......

  22. #147
    Member jdowdy411's Avatar
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    Haha. This escalated quickly! But thanks to everyone for their opinions and views. This, along with continuing research on my part, has been a huge help for this decision. My mind is made up at this point and I've decided on the Mirage with the DT's. Nothing against the brifter crowd (I'll probably try them out eventually!) But I feel like the DT's would be more fun and interesting after years of riding mountain bikes (with grip and trigger shifters). I'll update once I get the bike and have some miles on it; thanks again everyone.

  23. #148
    Portland Fred banerjek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdowdy411 View Post
    Haha. This escalated quickly! But thanks to everyone for their opinions and views. This, along with continuing research on my part, has been a huge help for this decision. My mind is made up at this point and I've decided on the Mirage with the DT's. Nothing against the brifter crowd (I'll probably try them out eventually!) But I feel like the DT's would be more fun and interesting after years of riding mountain bikes (with grip and trigger shifters). I'll update once I get the bike and have some miles on it; thanks again everyone.
    No reason to go one way or the other. When you get more bikes, you can have different shifting systems as each has advantages in different situations -- there are totally legit reasons why you might want brifters on one bike and DT on another. And as others have brought up, there are other choices as well.

    I don't even know how many different kinds of shifters I've used over the years and I've tried many more. For all the noise made here about how hard/easy it is to use system X or Y, I can't say I've ever had trouble shifting gears and anyone with a room temperature IQ can figure out and internalize any system in a few minutes. Having said that, you always want good quality. There are choices out there that are designed to look hi tech but which break easily and require constant fiddling to keep adjusted.

  24. #149
    South Carolina Ed
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdowdy411 View Post
    Haha. This escalated quickly! But thanks to everyone for their opinions and views. This, along with continuing research on my part, has been a huge help for this decision. My mind is made up at this point and I've decided on the Mirage with the DT's. Nothing against the brifter crowd (I'll probably try them out eventually!) But I feel like the DT's would be more fun and interesting after years of riding mountain bikes (with grip and trigger shifters). I'll update once I get the bike and have some miles on it; thanks again everyone.

    Make sure you wear at least two helmets and full body armor or you're doomed.

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Can't now, since manual gear shifts are going the way of the Dodo. But it does put the driving student in better touch with their car. How is this difficult to understand?

    Because roadies are getting weak and lazy?

    Can't ride heavy bikes. Must be light.

    Sprockets must go over 9. Can't wait to see it go to 20 in the back.

    Shifting has to be on brifters-and eventually, digital.

    Absolutely must have some sort of guide to show them how far their riding, or how hard they should push.

    Eventually, drugs are involved.

    I mean, yes it all helps. But really, why not just slap a motor and engine in the back? How did those folks ride those ancient iron velocipedes back in the day? Barbarians!

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