Brifters vs. Downtube shifters
03-04-14, 06:09 PM
#126
Portland Fred
Or, and this is a radical suggestion, but if you don't feel comfortable enough on a bike to take your hands off the bars to shift, learn to get comfortable enough on your bike to take your hands off the bars to shift. If you can't ride with one hand off the bars, comfortably and smoothly and without thought, and are not willing to learn, then you should stop riding your bike, for your own safety. Because, you will crash eventually, and it'll be a hard crash. 100% guaranteed.
Anyone who can't ride without taking a hand off the bars to shift also can't to signal and probably gets destabilized very easily. Definitely not good candidates for road riding or even the MUP.
03-04-14, 06:45 PM
#127
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Can't we all just get along? Retroshift!
03-04-14, 06:59 PM
#128
cowboy, steel horse, etc
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03-04-14, 07:06 PM
#129
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OP, I own a road bike with shifters like the Super Mirage, and a Mirage with the DT shifters.
Both shifting systems are good! Different sure than the MTB systems you are used to, they'll likely feel awkward at first. Just practice till your choice becomes second nature. I learned on DT's then got my hands on brifters later. Look at it this way, practicing means riding, and riding means fun! I don't think you can lose with either choice, the Mirage has thus far exceeded expectations. The Super Mirage might be a tad trickier to set up out of the box, but I can't imagine it would be too tough. I'd like to hear an update when you get your new bike!
Both shifting systems are good! Different sure than the MTB systems you are used to, they'll likely feel awkward at first. Just practice till your choice becomes second nature. I learned on DT's then got my hands on brifters later. Look at it this way, practicing means riding, and riding means fun! I don't think you can lose with either choice, the Mirage has thus far exceeded expectations. The Super Mirage might be a tad trickier to set up out of the box, but I can't imagine it would be too tough. I'd like to hear an update when you get your new bike!
03-04-14, 08:05 PM
#130
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Interesting thread, perhaps I can chime in. I learned on friction stem shifters, moved to friction DT shifters, then to indexed DT shifters and then to both Shimano STI's and Campagnolo Ergos. I also tried Microshift, and I have had Sora's, RSX, 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and Campy 8sp Chorus, Veloce, and 10-sp Centaur and Record. I am not inexperienced, and I lead a newbie group in the spring of entry-level riders, most of them on DT bikes, but some on bikesdirect.com bikes (that I usually end up fixing). I'll add that I ride the drops 99% of the time, but I do realize that most people don't. I still ride both types of shifters.
DT shifters require you to be aware of where you are, your terrain, and think ahead. You learn to anticipate shifts, because getting behind the curve on that has immediate consequences, especially on hills. My personal belief is that it's good to learn cycling with DT shifters. You have to actually think, and you learn to control your core while shifting. It does not take long to learn to shift on the fly. You have a lot of choices in brake levers, as well. DT shifters are insanely easy to set up and maintain, and keep your bars clear of annoying cables. I've used many, even Syncro's (we won't go there) and never had a problem. I've even used the 10-sp Dura Ace DT shifters, and they are precise, light, and very accurate.
Brifters remove the need for as much anticipation, awareness of your terrain, and thinking ahead. A rider who moves from DT shifters to brifters of any kind is often more prepared for hills, descents, corners, etc, because of the experience gained on DT shifters. The learning curve for those new to cycling is so short on brifters that novice mistakes can be compensated for, have less consequence, and the novice rider sticks around to ride another day, instead of giving up. Aesthetically, they are unsightly for the most part, and unless the cables are routed along the bar (with some loss of crispness), they look like alien feeding tubes. This does not matter to people new to the sport, nor should it. They take it as it comes, and if it's that much easier to ride brifters than DT shifters, then do it.
Now, for specifics. I have ridden Sora's both in the 8-sp DT shifters and the 8-sp and 9-sp plastic brifter versions. As a drop rider, I simply mounted the brifters down in front so I could reach the thumb button, but that pretty much ruled out any braking or shifting from the tops. I found the 8-sp Sora DT shifters to be crisp, clean, and worked much better as far as accurate shifting, ease of installation and adjustment. The particular model of brifters on the OP's choices are, to me, a waste of $50. They break fairly easily, in my experience. If the OP has to choose between the two bikes he mentioned, I'd recommend the DT shifted model. Go for the best bike for the money of the two, and worry about moving to brifters in a couple of years, when you really know what you want.
Lot of good points in the thread, and I agree with some, but not on those Sora's. The OP would be best served, overall, with a good used $400 bike, and there are many in this area, with brifter shifting that are a lot higher quality than those Moto's. However, if he wants to go new, that's his choice. 2 years from now, whichever bike he chooses, he'll be either out of the sport or getting a better bike. I'd hate to see him give up the sport if DT shifting appears too hard. I've seen it happen with my novice group; they get frustrated and give it up.
DT shifters require you to be aware of where you are, your terrain, and think ahead. You learn to anticipate shifts, because getting behind the curve on that has immediate consequences, especially on hills. My personal belief is that it's good to learn cycling with DT shifters. You have to actually think, and you learn to control your core while shifting. It does not take long to learn to shift on the fly. You have a lot of choices in brake levers, as well. DT shifters are insanely easy to set up and maintain, and keep your bars clear of annoying cables. I've used many, even Syncro's (we won't go there) and never had a problem. I've even used the 10-sp Dura Ace DT shifters, and they are precise, light, and very accurate.
Brifters remove the need for as much anticipation, awareness of your terrain, and thinking ahead. A rider who moves from DT shifters to brifters of any kind is often more prepared for hills, descents, corners, etc, because of the experience gained on DT shifters. The learning curve for those new to cycling is so short on brifters that novice mistakes can be compensated for, have less consequence, and the novice rider sticks around to ride another day, instead of giving up. Aesthetically, they are unsightly for the most part, and unless the cables are routed along the bar (with some loss of crispness), they look like alien feeding tubes. This does not matter to people new to the sport, nor should it. They take it as it comes, and if it's that much easier to ride brifters than DT shifters, then do it.
Now, for specifics. I have ridden Sora's both in the 8-sp DT shifters and the 8-sp and 9-sp plastic brifter versions. As a drop rider, I simply mounted the brifters down in front so I could reach the thumb button, but that pretty much ruled out any braking or shifting from the tops. I found the 8-sp Sora DT shifters to be crisp, clean, and worked much better as far as accurate shifting, ease of installation and adjustment. The particular model of brifters on the OP's choices are, to me, a waste of $50. They break fairly easily, in my experience. If the OP has to choose between the two bikes he mentioned, I'd recommend the DT shifted model. Go for the best bike for the money of the two, and worry about moving to brifters in a couple of years, when you really know what you want.
Lot of good points in the thread, and I agree with some, but not on those Sora's. The OP would be best served, overall, with a good used $400 bike, and there are many in this area, with brifter shifting that are a lot higher quality than those Moto's. However, if he wants to go new, that's his choice. 2 years from now, whichever bike he chooses, he'll be either out of the sport or getting a better bike. I'd hate to see him give up the sport if DT shifting appears too hard. I've seen it happen with my novice group; they get frustrated and give it up.
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 03-04-14 at 08:13 PM.
03-04-14, 08:13 PM
#131
Senior Member
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03-04-14, 08:17 PM
#132
Senior Member
If i take my hands of the handlebars I might crash.
If I can't shift from the drops I might crash.
I shift with mental mind control.
If I can't shift from the drops I might crash.
I shift with mental mind control.
03-04-14, 08:35 PM
#133
Senior Member
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-04-14, 08:36 PM
#134
Senior Member
Egawds. I remember those. Mid-90s mountainbike tech to the rescue!
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-05-14, 03:47 AM
#136
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03-05-14, 06:31 AM
#138
I'm doing it wrong.
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03-05-14, 06:38 AM
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I'm doing it wrong.
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Steel is better than carbon in my experience with riding, but that doesn't have anything to do with gaining a life-skill like being able to drive a manual shift car.
03-05-14, 06:49 AM
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03-05-14, 07:00 AM
#142
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Interesting thread, perhaps I can chime in. I learned on friction stem shifters, moved to friction DT shifters, then to indexed DT shifters and then to both Shimano STI's and Campagnolo Ergos. I also tried Microshift, and I have had Sora's, RSX, 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, and Campy 8sp Chorus, Veloce, and 10-sp Centaur and Record. I am not inexperienced, and I lead a newbie group in the spring of entry-level riders, most of them on DT bikes, but some on bikesdirect.com bikes (that I usually end up fixing). I'll add that I ride the drops 99% of the time, but I do realize that most people don't. I still ride both types of shifters.
DT shifters require you to be aware of where you are, your terrain, and think ahead. You learn to anticipate shifts, because getting behind the curve on that has immediate consequences, especially on hills. My personal belief is that it's good to learn cycling with DT shifters. You have to actually think, and you learn to control your core while shifting. It does not take long to learn to shift on the fly. You have a lot of choices in brake levers, as well. DT shifters are insanely easy to set up and maintain, and keep your bars clear of annoying cables. I've used many, even Syncro's (we won't go there) and never had a problem. I've even used the 10-sp Dura Ace DT shifters, and they are precise, light, and very accurate.
Brifters remove the need for as much anticipation, awareness of your terrain, and thinking ahead. A rider who moves from DT shifters to brifters of any kind is often more prepared for hills, descents, corners, etc, because of the experience gained on DT shifters. The learning curve for those new to cycling is so short on brifters that novice mistakes can be compensated for, have less consequence, and the novice rider sticks around to ride another day, instead of giving up. Aesthetically, they are unsightly for the most part, and unless the cables are routed along the bar (with some loss of crispness), they look like alien feeding tubes. This does not matter to people new to the sport, nor should it. They take it as it comes, and if it's that much easier to ride brifters than DT shifters, then do it.
Now, for specifics. I have ridden Sora's both in the 8-sp DT shifters and the 8-sp and 9-sp plastic brifter versions. As a drop rider, I simply mounted the brifters down in front so I could reach the thumb button, but that pretty much ruled out any braking or shifting from the tops. I found the 8-sp Sora DT shifters to be crisp, clean, and worked much better as far as accurate shifting, ease of installation and adjustment. The particular model of brifters on the OP's choices are, to me, a waste of $50. They break fairly easily, in my experience. If the OP has to choose between the two bikes he mentioned, I'd recommend the DT shifted model. Go for the best bike for the money of the two, and worry about moving to brifters in a couple of years, when you really know what you want.
Lot of good points in the thread, and I agree with some, but not on those Sora's. The OP would be best served, overall, with a good used $400 bike, and there are many in this area, with brifter shifting that are a lot higher quality than those Moto's. However, if he wants to go new, that's his choice. 2 years from now, whichever bike he chooses, he'll be either out of the sport or getting a better bike. I'd hate to see him give up the sport if DT shifting appears too hard. I've seen it happen with my novice group; they get frustrated and give it up.
DT shifters require you to be aware of where you are, your terrain, and think ahead. You learn to anticipate shifts, because getting behind the curve on that has immediate consequences, especially on hills. My personal belief is that it's good to learn cycling with DT shifters. You have to actually think, and you learn to control your core while shifting. It does not take long to learn to shift on the fly. You have a lot of choices in brake levers, as well. DT shifters are insanely easy to set up and maintain, and keep your bars clear of annoying cables. I've used many, even Syncro's (we won't go there) and never had a problem. I've even used the 10-sp Dura Ace DT shifters, and they are precise, light, and very accurate.
Brifters remove the need for as much anticipation, awareness of your terrain, and thinking ahead. A rider who moves from DT shifters to brifters of any kind is often more prepared for hills, descents, corners, etc, because of the experience gained on DT shifters. The learning curve for those new to cycling is so short on brifters that novice mistakes can be compensated for, have less consequence, and the novice rider sticks around to ride another day, instead of giving up. Aesthetically, they are unsightly for the most part, and unless the cables are routed along the bar (with some loss of crispness), they look like alien feeding tubes. This does not matter to people new to the sport, nor should it. They take it as it comes, and if it's that much easier to ride brifters than DT shifters, then do it.
Now, for specifics. I have ridden Sora's both in the 8-sp DT shifters and the 8-sp and 9-sp plastic brifter versions. As a drop rider, I simply mounted the brifters down in front so I could reach the thumb button, but that pretty much ruled out any braking or shifting from the tops. I found the 8-sp Sora DT shifters to be crisp, clean, and worked much better as far as accurate shifting, ease of installation and adjustment. The particular model of brifters on the OP's choices are, to me, a waste of $50. They break fairly easily, in my experience. If the OP has to choose between the two bikes he mentioned, I'd recommend the DT shifted model. Go for the best bike for the money of the two, and worry about moving to brifters in a couple of years, when you really know what you want.
Lot of good points in the thread, and I agree with some, but not on those Sora's. The OP would be best served, overall, with a good used $400 bike, and there are many in this area, with brifter shifting that are a lot higher quality than those Moto's. However, if he wants to go new, that's his choice. 2 years from now, whichever bike he chooses, he'll be either out of the sport or getting a better bike. I'd hate to see him give up the sport if DT shifting appears too hard. I've seen it happen with my novice group; they get frustrated and give it up.
I went the other way. Started with brifters on an ultralight carbon bike. Later moved to restoration of older steelies. I have 3 of them in the garage now, all with stem-mounted shifters; 2 friction and 1 indexed (Shimano). As you say, I quickly learned to anticipate my shifts. And with the friction shifters, I found it also helps to shift decisively, then back the lever off by a 1/2 mm or so . . . which seems to "lock it in" somehow.
I may convert one or more of the stem shifters to downtube. I WON'T convert the steelies to brifters, for reasons of cost and ugliness (as you say, it looks like someone is tube feeding an alien).
But which do I prefer for reasons of safety, speed and convenience? Brifters, hands down.
03-05-14, 07:09 AM
#143
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Why would you say it's more likely bars are too high? I ride in the drops as much as I possibly can. My stem is shunted as low as it can go and it's a -10 degree stem too. I would assume anyone who rides in the drops a lot is looking to ride faster and more efficiently, trying to be more aerodynamic. Not assume their bike isn't fitted properly.
03-05-14, 08:30 AM
#144
Senior Member
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-05-14, 08:34 AM
#145
Senior Member
Can't now, since manual gear shifts are going the way of the Dodo. But it does put the driving student in better touch with their car. How is this difficult to understand?
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-05-14, 09:26 AM
#146
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I have both (Brifters on my CF and down tube indexed on my old Steel Fuji Ace. At times I have to think twice to remember which I am currently using, but once in the right mode for the right bike, it is a automatic.
That said. I do find the brifters. much more intuitive to operate with no change of hand prosition required. If money is no object, go with Brifters. If you can appreciate the $50 savings, down tube shifers are more than adequate.
That said. I do find the brifters. much more intuitive to operate with no change of hand prosition required. If money is no object, go with Brifters. If you can appreciate the $50 savings, down tube shifers are more than adequate.
03-05-14, 11:03 AM
#147
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Haha. This escalated quickly! But thanks to everyone for their opinions and views. This, along with continuing research on my part, has been a huge help for this decision. My mind is made up at this point and I've decided on the Mirage with the DT's. Nothing against the brifter crowd (I'll probably try them out eventually!) But I feel like the DT's would be more fun and interesting after years of riding mountain bikes (with grip and trigger shifters). I'll update once I get the bike and have some miles on it; thanks again everyone.
03-05-14, 12:06 PM
#148
Portland Fred
Haha. This escalated quickly! But thanks to everyone for their opinions and views. This, along with continuing research on my part, has been a huge help for this decision. My mind is made up at this point and I've decided on the Mirage with the DT's. Nothing against the brifter crowd (I'll probably try them out eventually!) But I feel like the DT's would be more fun and interesting after years of riding mountain bikes (with grip and trigger shifters). I'll update once I get the bike and have some miles on it; thanks again everyone.
I don't even know how many different kinds of shifters I've used over the years and I've tried many more. For all the noise made here about how hard/easy it is to use system X or Y, I can't say I've ever had trouble shifting gears and anyone with a room temperature IQ can figure out and internalize any system in a few minutes. Having said that, you always want good quality. There are choices out there that are designed to look hi tech but which break easily and require constant fiddling to keep adjusted.
03-05-14, 12:07 PM
#149
South Carolina Ed
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Haha. This escalated quickly! But thanks to everyone for their opinions and views. This, along with continuing research on my part, has been a huge help for this decision. My mind is made up at this point and I've decided on the Mirage with the DT's. Nothing against the brifter crowd (I'll probably try them out eventually!) But I feel like the DT's would be more fun and interesting after years of riding mountain bikes (with grip and trigger shifters). I'll update once I get the bike and have some miles on it; thanks again everyone.
Make sure you wear at least two helmets and full body armor or you're doomed.
03-05-14, 12:09 PM
#150
Senior Member
Because roadies are getting weak and lazy?
Can't ride heavy bikes. Must be light.
Sprockets must go over 9. Can't wait to see it go to 20 in the back.
Shifting has to be on brifters-and eventually, digital.
Absolutely must have some sort of guide to show them how far their riding, or how hard they should push.
Eventually, drugs are involved.
I mean, yes it all helps. But really, why not just slap a motor and engine in the back? How did those folks ride those ancient iron velocipedes back in the day? Barbarians!