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  1. #26
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Got to say, I'm very suspiscuous of 38mm deep CF/AL clincher at 1350 grams for $600.

    First, Farsports, only claims 1440 grams. http://farsports.en.alibaba.com/prod...nly_1400g.html

    Second, I'm having trouble believing they can build a quality wheel at that price and weight. Comparable Zipp 303 with aluminum rim weighed more like 1600 grams.

    Cheap, light, durable, pick 2.
    The quote farsports sent me for a pair of 50x23 mm carbon rims was like 1300 g for $450/pair, and that's the heavier version. It's easy to assume that they're cutting costs in manufacturing. But you can just as easily say that big brand companies like Zipp jack up their prices and maximize their profit margins, just because they can. The truth is probably a combination of the two, and I'm curious how it really works.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Got to say, I'm very suspiscuous of 38mm deep CF/AL clincher at 1350 grams for $600.

    First, Farsports, only claims 1440 grams. http://farsports.en.alibaba.com/prod...nly_1400g.html

    Second, I'm having trouble believing they can build a quality wheel at that price and weight. Comparable Zipp 303 with aluminum rim weighed more like 1600 grams.

    Cheap, light, durable, pick 2.
    For what it is worth, Farsport claims 450g for that rim. 44 cx rays w/AL nips are around 215g. The typical Bitex hubset is 290g. So that is around 1405g. Rim weight has a +- so 1440 could be covering it.

    Now, whether you want to question the build, rim or even hub quality is up to you. I have set of Yishun carbon tubulars that I ordered as rims only that I have been happy with. Even though their wheelset included Novatec hubs which is what I ended up using I didn't want to try out their builds and didn't want the AL nipples they use.

  3. #28
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    The reason for my sceptisicm is that Zipp 303's of similar construction are around 200 grams heavier. With Zipp charging a price that allowed them to use the best materials, and manufacturing processes. My assumption, fair or not, is that a $500 wheel built with open source molds, that is 200 grams lighter may not be the best built wheel.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    The reason for my sceptisicm is that Zipp 303's of similar construction are around 200 grams heavier. With Zipp charging a price that allowed them to use the best materials, and manufacturing processes. My assumption, fair or not, is that a $500 wheel built with open source molds, that is 200 grams lighter may not be the best built wheel.
    Assume all you want.

    But you might consider that the Zipp rim (which is where most of the weight difference is) is both wider and deeper than the Farsport and per Zipp's own statements that is primarily for aero benefits and not strength or safety. Also, as you pointed out, Farsport actually says 1440. Zipp says 1565 for the 303 so the difference is 125g.

  5. #30
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    ^ the Zipp wheel I'm thinking of were the 303's I had with Aluminum braking surfaces, and 38mm rim depth, which they don't make anymore.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    ^ the Zipp wheel I'm thinking of were the 303's I had with Aluminum braking surfaces, and 38mm rim depth, which they don't make anymore.
    Alright, I'm assuming it was still wider and I haven't a clue what the spokes and hubs were on that wheel, but whatever.

    I myself didn't want the build that went with a ~$500 carbon wheelset so agreed there. But on a 450g hybrid rim? I dunno, if you took a Stan's rim and added some carbon, why not?

  7. #32
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    lots of assuming in this thread.

    I wish people would actually test before assuming.

    Is the construction going to be ****tier in the Chinese wheel? yes most likely.
    Is the construction in the ZIPP wheel going to give you increased safety? impossible to say as they never release any test data.

    Without test data, you're all speculating and making dumb assumptions.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    lots of assuming in this thread.

    I wish people would actually test before assuming.

    Is the construction going to be ****tier in the Chinese wheel? yes most likely.
    Is the construction in the ZIPP wheel going to give you increased safety? impossible to say as they never release any test data.

    Without test data, you're all speculating and making dumb assumptions.
    Did you figure that out all on your own did you read where both Merlin and myself use the actual words assuming and speculation?

  9. #34
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Did you figure that out all on your own did you read where both Merlin and myself use the actual words assuming and speculation?
    assuming is dumb, regardless if you start off by saying, "I assume...blah blah blah".

    Stop assuming and try to get some test data. If it's not available, perform a series of tests yourself. If you cannot, stop assuming.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  10. #35
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    where I work, certain assumptions can get you fired



    or someone killed for that matter



    but going back to topic, I've seen no real evidence that Chinese carbon wheels present a real safety concern. People have pointed out that they're not as good (obviously). There may also be bad manufacturers. But as far as these main retailers go, I haven't seen any major reason to avoid them.
    Last edited by spectastic; 03-12-14 at 02:17 PM.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    assuming is dumb, regardless if you start off by saying, "I assume...blah blah blah".

    Stop assuming and try to get some test data. If it's not available, perform a series of tests yourself. If you cannot, stop assuming.
    Most of what was offered was backed up with facts/data where it is known and plenty of personal experience. Past that, this is a forum. Assuming and speculating is what people do here, including yourself.

  12. #37
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Most of what was offered was backed up with facts/data where it is known and plenty of personal experience. Past that, this is a forum. Assuming and speculating is what people do here, including yourself.
    where are these facts/data. I'd like to read it.

    Personal experience is not reliable test data, its anecdotal evidence.

    I want to see the test data, test description and number of samples tested.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    where are these facts/data. I'd like to read it.

    Personal experience is not reliable test data, its anecdotal evidence.

    I want to see the test data, test description and number of samples tested.
    Weights and dimensions are data. If you want test results go somewhere else. This is a forum where participants share experience.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
    I see that these Chinese wheels don't really have real U shape profiles like zipps have, more like V with blunt finishing.

    I think I'm going to go with farsports. Their wheels seem to be good quality and competitively priced. They had a TN and TM series, where the TM series was about 100g lighter in the wheelset, and about $100 more expensive. I'm going to go with the TN series because their rims are slightly heavier, which I assume translates into durability.
    I think that if you look closely several of the chinese vendors do have "U" shaped rims available in both tubular and clincher. However, I'm not aware of any that have a Zipp'esque "toroid" available.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  15. #40
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Most of what was offered was backed up with facts/data where it is known and plenty of personal experience. Past that, this is a forum. Assuming and speculating is what people do here, including yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by canam73 View Post
    Weights and dimensions are data. If you want test results go somewhere else. This is a forum where participants share experience.
    let me get this straight your facts/data to support a safer wheel are weights and dimensions.

    Okay I'm out of here my IQ is dropping.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  16. #41
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I think that if you look closely several of the chinese vendors do have "U" shaped rims available in both tubular and clincher. However, I'm not aware of any that have a Zipp'esque "toroid" available.

    The Chinese clinchers don't have much R&D to back up their "U profiles".... IM ASSUMING
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    let me get this straight your facts/data to support a safer wheel are weights and dimensions.

    Okay I'm out of here my IQ is dropping.
    How high could it be if you have almost 8000 posts here and then got hung up by people speculating?

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectastic View Post

    The Chinese clinchers don't have much R&D to back up their "U profiles".... IM ASSUMING
    I probably should have been more careful and referenced Zipp's current Firecrest profiles. I really couldn't tell you. But, with regard to R&D, I'm not going to assume one way or the other:-)

    R50C-700-25-Mode(basalt%20brake%20surfac%20e)l.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    let me get this straight your facts/data to support a safer wheel are weights and dimensions.

    Okay I'm out of here my IQ is dropping.
    @ovoleg can you email me off line? Tommygldn at gmail.

  20. #45
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I probably should have been more careful and referenced Zipp's current Firecrest profiles. I really couldn't tell you. But, with regard to R&D, I'm not going to assume one way or the other:-)

    R50C-700-25-Mode(basalt%20brake%20surfac%20e)l.jpg
    That's a drawing of a rim produced by a factory that is NOT one of the Chinese Trading Companies posing as factories mentioned in this thread thus far.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    That's a drawing of a rim produced by a factory that is NOT one of the Chinese Trading Companies posing as factories mentioned in this thread thus far.
    I thought Farsport had already come up. Or, are you suggesting that the drawing should not be attributed to a Farsport product? In which case, "WHO" should the drawing be more accurately attributed to?
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  22. #47
    Senior Member spectastic's Avatar
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    50TN-23.jpg
    this is what the rep from farsports sent me for their 50x23mm. It looks like something rigged up in MS Paint.

    but it's still probably going to be head/shoulders better than my kysrium elites, that's for sure
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  23. #48
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I thought Farsport had already come up. Or, are you suggesting that the drawing should not be attributed to a Farsport product? In which case, "WHO" should the drawing be more accurately attributed to?
    I don't know who gave you the drawing and it doesn't matter. My point is that there are only a few factories who do basalt work. It's my understanding that Farsports is a trading Company and not a factory (I am open to correction here) so that means they are sourcing the rims from the actual manufacturer and branding them. Now, they may own the molds or they could be open molds. I have no idea which is the case.

    Most of the Chinese eBay brands fall into this category of Trading Company sourcing and branding goods.
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  24. #49
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
    50TN-23.jpg
    this is what the rep from farsports sent me for their 50x23mm. It looks like something rigged up in MS Paint.

    but it's still probably going to be head/shoulders better than my kysrium elites, that's for sure
    It sure doesn't look like a proper 2D drawing like the one attached above which would suggest that they don't own the mold for that rim. If they did they would have the 3D and 2D drawings.
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  25. #50
    Senior Member TexMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycledogg View Post
    1+ on this. Used Zipp 404 clinchers can be had for 800-900 all day on the bay. HED/Zipp owner and luv'em both.
    Cheers
    I test rode zips 404 for 2 weeks, bought Williams 58mm and I can't a difference.

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