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  1. #26
    Senior Member dfischer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    You can get a wireless PowerTap G3 Hed Belgium C2 Rear Wheel new from Excel sports right now for $889.
    Whoa...am I crazy or is that an awesome deal?

  2. #27
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    Wtf are you talking about?
    I'm saying there are a bunch of people selling power meters; there are a bunch of other people trying to sell a bit cheaper power meter because they see the money to be made by beating the current price.

    The nature of markets drives the price, and that your alleged conspiracy theory doesn't work for both legal and practical reasons.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  3. #28
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfischer1 View Post
    Whoa...am I crazy or is that an awesome deal?
    they're almost giving you the wheel for free.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    I'm saying there are a bunch of people selling power meters; there are a bunch of other people trying to sell a bit cheaper power meter because they see the money to be made by beating the current price.

    The nature of markets drives the price, and that your alleged conspiracy theory doesn't work for both legal and practical reasons.
    Ok well i should not have used conspiracy theory as a description. But i do think the companies that make bikes and bike related stuff gouge their customers knowing demand is inelastic. Now, you will say that is not gouging, because the buyers are willing and do t care, and i agree.
    Cycling companies are more than happy to have cyclists as customers, they do t care about costs, they pay for 15 000$ bikes.
    they are not colluding in their pricing per se, but keep it high in unison because demand lets them so, because cycling fiends like us are dumb.
    who pays 4k for a power meter (saw it in a magazine)? Whoooo?

    r&d aint cheap, but they are not developing aircraft. Its a damn weatherproof strain gauge with ant+, nothing more.
    its not a motorcycle spinning an engine at 18000rpm.

  5. #30
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    Cycling companies are more than happy to have cyclists as customers, they do t care about costs, they pay for 15 000$ bikes.
    they are not colluding in their pricing per se, but keep it high in unison because demand lets them so, because cycling fiends like us are dumb.
    who pays 4k for a power meter (saw it in a magazine)? Whoooo?
    The demand for power meters is very price elastic. When it was only $3500 SRM's very few people had power meters. When Powertaps came along for less than $1000, the number of riders using power meters sky rocketed. Get a reliable, accurate power meter for $300 (which I actually agree with you will likely happen) and they'll become close to as common as cyclecomputers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    r&d aint cheap, but they are not developing aircraft. Its a damn weatherproof strain gauge with ant+, nothing more.
    its not a motorcycle spinning an engine at 18000rpm.
    There is so much more to it than that. Setting aside the cost of manufacturing the device, the raw cost of making the unit is just part of it. You've got a whole bunch of other things to add in, transporting it,warranty costs, distributing it, etc.

    And those are just direct costs that affect your gross margin.

    So lets say we can make it for a raw cost of $100, and get it to retailers for $200. We still have to sell it at a profit. To cover SG&A expenses we likely need to sell it for $400.

    And all of this is very expensive on a per unit basis, when we have a small market to sell to.

    If it were as simple as I can buy a strain guage for $5, and ANT+ dongle for $5 etc. somebody would already have a $99 power meter out there.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  6. #31
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    You're probably too young to remember the portable (and I use that term loosely) cell phones which sold for approx $4,000 in the early '80s. After the industry has collectively sold a few hundred million powermeters they'll be as inexpensive as smartphones.
    The problem is, they are not very likely to sell enough power meters to truly scale effectively, especially with so many players in the market right now.

    Power meters are complex devices, and training with power is too involved for the average cyclist. My guess is that even at a lower price, there's a limit to how many people will actually want a power meter. It certainly doesn't have a target market the same size as cell phones or most common electronics.

  7. #32
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Wired Powertaps in good condition, with a complete wheel routinely sell for under $300.

    You can get a wireless PowerTap G3 Hed Belgium C2 Rear Wheel new from Excel sports right now for $889.
    Wired powertaps in a complete wheel for sub $300? I assume you're talking a used one at that price?

    $900 for a back wheel is still more than I want to pay. I was rather hoping it really was easy to build a power meter and sell it for $300.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  8. #33
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    Wired powertaps in a complete wheel for sub $300? I assume you're talking a used one at that price?

    .
    Yes, I meant to say used. I don't think they make the wired powertap anymore.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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  9. #34
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    The problem is, they are not very likely to sell enough power meters to truly scale effectively, especially with so many players in the market right now.

    Power meters are complex devices, and training with power is too involved for the average cyclist. My guess is that even at a lower price, there's a limit to how many people will actually want a power meter. It certainly doesn't have a target market the same size as cell phones or most common electronics.
    True. But I think the market is close to the same size as the market for Garmin Edge's, when you get around $300-$500. In fact Garmin's strategy in buying Metrigear (the Vector developer) was to get a sub $1000 power meter which they believed would sell in numbers similar to Edge. they missed their price point though.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  10. #35
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    I was rather hoping it really was easy to build a power meter and sell it for $300.
    And I keep hoping it'll be somebody like the Brim Brothers (who put the power meter in the cleats so one meter can be used on any bike with no tooling changes) that does it.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  11. #36
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    Cycling companies are more than happy to have cyclists as customers, they do t care about costs, they pay for 15 000$ bikes.
    they are not colluding in their pricing per se, but keep it high in unison because demand lets them so, because cycling fiends like us are dumb.
    You are out of touch with reality. If "cycling fiends are dumb," as you say, and are willing to buy merchandise with inflated price tags just... because... don't you think that at least one of the hundreds of manufacturers in the industry would key in on this and try to take advantage of the situation? Don't you think that at least one of them would realize that dropping price to gain market share (while still maintaining a healthy margin) would net them more profit? If the market is such low-hanging fruit, don't you think that some savvy business person *outside* of the industry would notice and then enter the market to take advantage of it?

    People/corporations are greedy. You can't use that trait to explain price gouging and then conveniently ignore it when it comes to the prospect of greater profit through moving more units and gaining market share.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  12. #37
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himespau View Post
    And I keep hoping it'll be somebody like the Brim Brothers (who put the power meter in the cleats so one meter can be used on any bike with no tooling changes) that does it.
    Putting it in cleats would be nice although I struggle to see just how it would work. Putting it in the pedals seems like a good idea since they can be transferred from bike to bike with minimal effort. Building it into the wheel hub or the crankset is great for a single bike but does make it difficult if you've got more than one bike with different wheel sizes.

    I'd really like to be able to transfer a power meter from my cross bike to my mountain bike, but unless it goes in the pedals it's hard to see it happening. And the only way it can go in the pedals that I can see is with the Garmin offering, which runs to the fat end of $2000 and would mean I'd also need to change my riding shoes.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  13. #38
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    Putting it in cleats would be nice although I struggle to see just how it would work.
    1st Hands-On Ride with Brim Brothers Zone Cleat Based Power Meter | DC Rainmaker
    Last edited by himespau; 03-21-14 at 09:16 AM.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
    You are out of touch with reality. If "cycling fiends are dumb," as you say, and are willing to buy merchandise with inflated price tags just... because... don't you think that at least one of the hundreds of manufacturers in the industry would key in on this and try to take advantage of the situation? Don't you think that at least one of them would realize that dropping price to gain market share (while still maintaining a healthy margin) would net them more profit? If the market is such low-hanging fruit, don't you think that some savvy business person *outside* of the industry would notice and then enter the market to take advantage of it?

    People/corporations are greedy. You can't use that trait to explain price gouging and then conveniently ignore it when it comes to the prospect of greater profit through moving more units and gaining market share.
    Are you saying the pricing is fair? I use fair in the financial context, As in fair pricing, neither cheap nor rich.
    ill answer, no. what goes in a 15k motocycle vs a 15k bicycle....its nonsense

    also, bikes like any other luxury item are more prestigious, the more expensive they are, in some instances.
    I also suspect that because of the small size of the market, most producer processes are extremely inefficient and expensive because, which also doesn't help price.

  15. #40
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    Are you saying the pricing is fair? I use fair in the financial context, As in fair pricing, neither cheap nor rich.
    wtf does this even mean? I think that the pricing is, for the most part, market-driven. "Cheap," "rich," and "fair" are a matter of perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    also, bikes like any other luxury item are more prestigious, the more expensive they are, in some instances.
    Bike are Veblen goods? While there may be handful of examples in the market, I would largely disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urymoto View Post
    I also suspect that because of the small size of the market, most producer processes are extremely inefficient and expensive because, which also doesn't help price.
    No **** Sherlock - why do you think that people have been repeatedly mentioning economies of scale?
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  16. #41
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post




    Bike are Veblen goods? While there may be handful of examples in the market, I would largely disagree.
    I think you could make a case for a few bikes. Colnago C60 might be an example. But I'd agree the vast majority of bicycles, and bike related products do not have an upward sloping demand curve. (actually a rightward shifting demand curve if you want to get technical)
    Last edited by merlinextraligh; 03-21-14 at 09:30 AM.
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  17. #42
    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    I think you could make a case for a few bikes. Colnago C60 might be an example.
    Yeah, that's why I said, "while there may be handful of examples in the market". I would imagine that some of the boutique frame builders, with years-long waiting lists, would qualify, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

  18. #43
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Interesting. I think I'd still rather have it in the pedals, not least thinking of the time I had to dismount in a hurry when I ran into a pothole in a section of road that was under six inches of water, and then walk through the six inches of water until I got to the far side. But fascinating to see the way they're doing this stuff.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  19. #44
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    Saris, SRM, SRAM, Pioneer, Garmin, Power to Max, Rotor, Wellgo, Stages and Brim are all conspiring to fix prices?

    If anyone could make a power meter and sell it at a profit for $300, they would make a heck of a lot of money.
    So naive - don't you know that ALL those companies are owned by the Pentaverate?


  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    No technical reason it can't be done, but it may never be done because it's extremely difficult to deal with Richard Byrne.
    Well, Metrigear was able to do it before Garmin bought them...

  21. #46
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post
    Well, Metrigear was able to do it before Garmin bought them...
    Garmin was business savvy enough to know they couldn't make a substantial investment in Metrigear/Vector, and be captive to Bryne's caprice.

    So they went Look style so they could contract with anyone with a Look license to build the pedal bodies.

    Richard has the reputation of being a Dick.

    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Garmin to cut a deal with him.

    FWIW, I've used Speedplay pedals for20 plus years, and would love to see a speedplay based Vector, just not counting on it.
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
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    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

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