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-   -   Two local cyclist hit and killed this morning. Very sad. (http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/937970-two-local-cyclist-hit-killed-morning-very-sad.html)

3alarmer 03-13-14 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyD (Post 16574488)
I try to give them a chance.


3alarmer 03-13-14 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574514)
Cuts both ways.

...you can't safely ride single track because of all the clueless mountain bikers ?

WEK 03-13-14 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeyBoyAz (Post 16574293)
Sorry to hear. That intersection looks awful.

It is. Terrifying is the word I would use to describe it. I avoid it altogether now.

rpenmanparker 03-13-14 11:43 AM

One statistic suggests about a third of cycling fatalities occur at night. Nowhere near that fraction of cycling occurs at night. Do the math.

3alarmer 03-13-14 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574523)
One statistic suggests about a third of cycling fatalities occur at night. Nowhere near that fraction of cycling occurs at night. Do the math.

...I'm sorry, but I don't get it. Can you show me your equation please ?
It does seem we're headed in the direction of simply giving up bicycling altogether.

merlinextraligh 03-13-14 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574523)
One statistic suggests about a third of cycling fatalities occur at night. Nowhere near that fraction of cycling occurs at night. Do the math.

Problem is that the data isn't detailed enough to determine how much of that is from improperly lilluminated cyclists, how much is from cyclists riding the wrong direction, which is particularly dangerous without lights, how much is from drunk drivers, and how much is from drunk cyclists.

I think it's open to debate how safe it is to ride at night with proper lights, reflective materials, and sober.
Personally, I try to avoid it, but don't think it is unreasonably unsafe.


In the case at hand, no one knows what actually happened, but it appears that either the truck or the cyclists ran a red light, whcih may not have had much to do with whether it was dark.

Heathpack 03-13-14 11:54 AM

Well, I understand this thread may get shut down, but I wish it wouldn't because I struggle with what I should do with this very issue.

I work Mon-Thur, need to leave for work at 7:10 and right now sunrise is 7am. I ride 4 days a week and my training works best with only Sat-Sun back-to-back rides; for the weekday rides I try to leave a day's recovery in between. My work day does not end at any regular time and if I schedule a weekday ride for after work, there's only about a 20% chance it will happen because I get stuck late at work a lot. So I ride before dawn usually. I'm a woman and I ride alone in the mornings. My choices are: 1. ride on bike paths alone in the dark, but our bike paths are along dry river beds and under road overpasses, exactly where creepy people hang out. I usually make a point of always riding on the road before dawn, but Tues AM, I broke my own rule, got on a bike path, went under a bridge and whizzed past a creepy guy standing quietly under that bridge in the dark. Of course, I can't let a situation develop such that the creepy guy under the bridge figures out that I'll be coming by every Tuesday morning at 5:40 am, 2. ride on the roads, where I risk being run over, 3. ride my trainer, which will work for one of my weekday rides but not the other (hill climbing) ride, 4. miss 80% of my weekday hill climbing rides if I need to put this in as a PM ride (some of which would also wind up being in the dark anyway).

Obviously there is no good answer here. Makes me sad.


H

merlinextraligh 03-13-14 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathpack (Post 16574559)
Well, I understand this thread may get shut down, but I wish it wouldn't because I struggle with what I should do with this very issue.


H

Is riding at lunch an option?

As for riding in the dark, high quality front light on helmet and bars; high quality flashing rear tailight, and lots of reflective clothing, and/or reflective material on the bike.

Chose your routes to avoid particularly dangerous roads; and ride like you're invisible to cars, and I don't think you're taking an unreasonable risk.

longbeachgary 03-13-14 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574523)
One statistic suggests about a third of cycling fatalities occur at night. Nowhere near that fraction of cycling occurs at night. Do the math.

Just make stuff up - no one will notice.

merlinextraligh 03-13-14 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longbeachgary (Post 16574596)
Just make stuff up - no one will notice.

That's not made up.

Table 103 in this link. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811754AR.pdf

The question is what are the factors that are driving that number

3alarmer 03-13-14 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathpack (Post 16574559)
Well, I understand this thread may get shut down, but I wish it wouldn't because I struggle with what I should do with this very issue.

I work Mon-Thur, need to leave for work at 7:10 and right now sunrise is 7am. I ride 4 days a week and my training works best with only Sat-Sun back-to-back rides; for the weekday rides I try to leave a day's recovery in between. My work day does not end at any regular time and if I schedule a weekday ride for after work, there's only about a 20% chance it will happen because I get stuck late at work a lot. So I ride before dawn usually. I'm a woman and I ride alone in the mornings. My choices are: 1. ride on bike paths alone in the dark, but our bike paths are along dry river beds and under road overpasses, exactly where creepy people hang out. I usually make a point of always riding on the road before dawn, but Tues AM, I broke my own rule, got on a bike path, went under a bridge and whizzed past a creepy guy standing quietly under that bridge in the dark. Of course, I can't let a situation develop such that the creepy guy under the bridge figures out that I'll be coming by every Tuesday morning at 5:40 am, 2. ride on the roads, where I risk being run over, 3. ride my trainer, which will work for one of my weekday rides but not the other (hill climbing) ride, 4. miss 80% of my weekday hill climbing rides if I need to put this in as a PM ride (some of which would also wind up being in the dark anyway).

Obviously there is no good answer here. Makes me sad.


H

...the only workable answer I've come up with (and prior to retirement, I commuted
for many years, to a number of different jobs, in different locations, many in various
towns here in California,) is my strategy of pretending that drivers do not see me.

Unless I've made eye contact (which you cannot do in the dark), I am presumed invisible.

Obviously, this changes your style of riding with the conditions.

I, too, given your description, would choose roads over creepy guys under the bridge, were I you.


My last job was 24 hour shifts, so i could ride each way at 7 or 8 in the morning, but even so I got
caught by the time change at certain points in the year. And the lights available now are a quantum
leap over what I had available to me as a commuter. Carpe diem.

3alarmer 03-13-14 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16574605)
That's not made up.


"Nearly half of all cycling deaths nationally involve cyclists riding at night without lights, although only 3% of biking occurs after dark."

The question is what are the factors that are driving that number

...and one of those might be whether lights make a difference.

wheelreason 03-13-14 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16574605)
The question is what are the factors that are driving that number

I'm m going to say darkness, final answer...

RJM 03-13-14 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16574605)
That's not made up.

Table 103 in this link. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811754AR.pdf

The question is what are the factors that are driving that number

Most of the salmoning drunkards sans lights I see riding around happens to be at night.

3alarmer 03-13-14 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelreason (Post 16574635)
I'm m going to say darkness, final answer...

...so why do so many people on bikes get hit and killed by cars in daylight ? There must be a reason. What could it be ?

merlinextraligh 03-13-14 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJM (Post 16574644)
Most of the salmoning drunkards sans lights I see riding around happens to be at night.

Looking at the numbers, drunk, ninja, and/or salmons account for about 23% of fatalities. Not sure that completely explains night time fatalities.

Problem is that the data just aren't very reliable with regard to actual accident causes, with many listed as uknown, and the data on how many miles are ridden is not very good, and certainly not good for how many before and after dark.

MattFoley 03-13-14 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574231)
Yeah, deadly seriously. If it's not being invisible (so you have lights, reflectors, etc.), it poorer night vision. If it's not that, it's more inebriated drivers at night than during the day. If it is not that, it is road hazards that the bike rider can't see or nocturnal animals crossing the road that you can't see until too late. On and on. Fools game.

By this logic, drivers shouldn't drive at night and pedestrians shouldn't walk. So I guess we should only leave our homes during daylight hours!

wheelreason 03-13-14 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 16574646)
...so why do so many people on bikes get hit and killed by cars in daylight ? There must be a reason. What could it be ?

Is your argument that because cyclists get hit and killed during the day, riding at night is not inherently more dangerous?

RJM 03-13-14 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16574678)
Looking at the numbers, drunk, ninja, and/or salmons account for about 23% of fatalities. Not sure that completely explains night time fatalities.

Problem is that the data just aren't very reliable with regard to actual accident causes, with many listed as uknown, and the data on how many miles are ridden is not very good, and certainly not good for how many before and after dark.

Exactly....it isn't good data and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Riding at night can be very safe, but that assumes you are practicing it safely. Many, many, many cyclists don't ride safely during the day and when they don't do it at night they aren't giving drivers a chance to even see them. A bright flashing rear light and good headlight do wonders for cycling safety.

Our club gave out light kits to local commuters (people who don't have a pot to piss in and use a bike to get to their micky-d's job at all hours of the day) because they just don't have the money to get some.

RJM 03-13-14 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelreason (Post 16574694)
Is your argument that because cyclists get hit and killed during the day, riding at night is not inherently more dangerous?

If darkness is killing people, then daylight should keep them alive....right.


And your argument is that it can't be done safely, which isn't true.



It's been my experience that riding during rush hour is inherently more dangerous than riding at night.

Nachoman 03-13-14 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slackerprince (Post 16574342)
FWIW, I use this tail light:

Robot Check

It shoots red lights to the sides.
These threads never go well. My "Amazon Exec" thread, for example.

S

That seems like a good design for a rear blinkie.

Heathpack 03-13-14 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16574579)
Is riding at lunch an option?

As for riding in the dark, high quality front light on helmet and bars; high quality flashing rear tailight, and lots of reflective clothing, and/or reflective material on the bike.

Chose your routes to avoid particularly dangerous roads; and ride like you're invisible to cars, and I don't think you're taking an unreasonable risk.

Lol on the "lunch" comment. There is the eating of food but no lunch hour. No one should feel too sorry for me, I make the schedule and could schedule lunch if I wanted (but I could not ride, no shower at work and not enough time for a meaningful ride and a shower too. plus my bike is at home one hour away from my job). If I schedule lunch, I will get home even later- my job ends when I am done for the day, whenever that might be, 4pm or 10pm. FYI, I am no slave driver, all my people get a lunch break, just not me.

I do have good lights. No reflectors though and light but non-reflective clothes, so I could definitely make improvements there.

H

rpenmanparker 03-13-14 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJM (Post 16574701)
If darkness is killing people, then daylight should keep them alive....right.


And your argument is that it can't be done safely, which isn't true.



It's been my experience that riding during rush hour is inherently more dangerous than riding at night.

Your attempts to discredit established facts have become ridiculous. Just give it a rest.

merlinextraligh 03-13-14 12:45 PM

^ Riding at lunch may be more workable than you think. Bring the bike with you on the car. You don't have to take a shower after; towel off, baby wipes suffice.

And with the right set of intervals you can accomplish a lot in 45 minutes. So, if you schedule your day with a mid day break, you'll get home a little later, but you'll also have your ride for day done when you do get home.

RJM 03-13-14 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574727)
Your attempts to discredit established facts have become ridiculous. Just give it a rest.

Like your fact that you can't ride safely at night? That fact?


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