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-   -   Two local cyclist hit and killed this morning. Very sad. (http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/937970-two-local-cyclist-hit-killed-morning-very-sad.html)

wheelreason 03-13-14 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJM (Post 16574701)
If darkness is killing people, then daylight should keep them alive....right.


And your argument is that it can't be done safely, which isn't true.





It's been my experience that riding during rush hour is inherently more dangerous than riding at night.

So if I drive a stake through your heart, and you die, then you were a Vampire?

3alarmer 03-13-14 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathpack (Post 16574724)
Lol on the "lunch" comment. There is the eating of food but no lunch hour. No one should feel too sorry for me, I make the schedule and could schedule lunch if I wanted (but I could not ride, no shower at work and not enough time for a meaningful ride and a shower too. plus my bike is at home one hour away from my job). If I schedule lunch, I will get home even later- my job ends when I am done for the day, whenever that might be, 4pm or 10pm. FYI, I am no slave driver, all my people get a lunch break, just not me.

I do have good lights. No reflectors though and light but non-reflective clothes, so I could definitely make improvements there.

H

..see my post in the addiction thread on lighting. Those little Bike Glow thingies are cheap, run
forever on two double a batteries, and when not on your bike, you can use them at all night raves.

This is not to be considered as a plug for ecstasy.

3alarmer 03-13-14 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574727)
Your attempts to discredit established facts have become ridiculous. Just give it a rest.

..again, what facts have we established, exactly ? I must state at this point I see none.
I do, however, see a greatdeal of opinion masquerading as fact....never a good idea.

If you want to state, "Bicyclists are hit by motorists and frequently killed because the motorists don't see them," I'm good.
Why do I think that's not gonna be agreeable to you ?

3alarmer 03-13-14 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelreason (Post 16574752)
So if I drive a stake through your heart, and you die, then you were a Vampire?

...is it a wooden stake ? Has to be a wooden stake.

wheelreason 03-13-14 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 16574776)
...is it a wooden stake ? Has to be a wooden stake.

I was going to cut out the fillet mignon, and NY strip out and use the bone, won't work?

Seriously though, you don't see that riding at night is more dangerous than riding during the day?

RJM 03-13-14 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelreason (Post 16574805)
I was going to cut out the fillet mignon, and NY strip out and use the bone, won't work?

Seriously though, you don't see that riding at night is more dangerous than riding during the day?

Sure it is more dangerous, like driving a car at night is more dangerous or like flying an airplane at night is more dangerous or jogging at night is more dangerous. All these activities can be performed safely at night though.

Heathpack 03-13-14 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3alarmer (Post 16574762)
..see my post in the addiction thread on lighting. Those little Bike Glow thingies are cheap, run
forever on two double a batteries, and when not on your bike, you can use them at all night raves.

This is not to be considered as a plug for ecstasy.

Thanks, I really do have to figure out something better. The morning is the best time for me to ride for sure.

H

rpenmanparker 03-13-14 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJM (Post 16574845)
Sure it is more dangerous, like driving a car at night is more dangerous or like flying an airplane at night is more dangerous or jogging at night is more dangerous. All these activities can be performed safely at night though.

It is apparently very important for you to believe that with regard to cycling. Fine. I hope it works out well for you. Relatively speaking, however, choosing to ride at night recreationally is not IMO a good bet. If night riding is what is needed to make your living or something else critical to your existence, I can only say be careful and good luck. Different strokes for different folks.

Doughboy6 03-13-14 01:25 PM

I believe this has gone way off topic. Regardless of the circumstances two human beings who shared a passion that we all share, lost their lives. Whether it was due to improper lighting or driver error is not the most important part of this. It is that children lost their fathers, wives lost their husbands, and mothers lost their sons. Please keep that in mind while you argue the statistics of how and when our brethren perish.

BillyD 03-13-14 01:25 PM

I don't think there's any question that riding at night is more dangerous than riding in daylight. Even perfect vision is diminished by darkness. It's a risk you choose to take if you insist on riding after sundown.

As to whether riding "safely" with a full set of lights and reflectors makes you as visible at night as riding during the day, I think that's just wishful thinking. Certainly a thorough study could settle that theory, but personally I would have serious, serious doubts. I wouldn't bet a thin dime on it.

BillyD 03-13-14 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doughboy6 (Post 16574882)
I believe this has gone way off topic. Regardless of the circumstances two human beings who shared a passion that we all share, lost their lives. Whether it was due to improper lighting or driver error is not the most important part of this. It is that children lost their fathers, wives lost their husbands, and mothers lost their sons. Please keep that in mind while you argue the statistics of how and when our brethren perish.

+100 Well said.

wphamilton 03-13-14 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinextraligh (Post 16574678)
Looking at the numbers, drunk, ninja, and/or salmons account for about 23% of fatalities. Not sure that completely explains night time fatalities.

Problem is that the data just aren't very reliable with regard to actual accident causes, with many listed as uknown, and the data on how many miles are ridden is not very good, and certainly not good for how many before and after dark.

Also, the chart shows that only 7.7% of the injuries are between 9 pm and 6 am. Fatalities however are 23%.

You said that 3% of the riding is at night, so it's a little more than twice as dangerous with respect to accidents. When you have an accident at night, it's more likely to be fatal. Seems reasonable. I'll speculate that riding drunk, ninja and/or salmon (your 23% of fatalities) is even more dangerous at night than in daytime.

Maybe none of which has any bearing on this tragedy. Police Lt. Darren Paul said that there were no immediate signs that the driver was impaired, crossing that off his list of possible causes I guess. . I think that the reason we as cyclists start looking at the cyclists in these accidents, and why we tend to fixate on lights, reflectors, helmets, riding "correctly" and even avoiding riding at night is because we don't want to accept that these accidents are sometimes random. It must have been something they did, that we wouldn't do, so it won't happen to us, or so we hope. But in reality I have no idea what actually happened there, and out of respect for those two guys and the people they left behind I'd rather not speculate.

Carbonfiberboy 03-13-14 04:51 PM

Dead flat and wide open. One can see car lights a very long way at night. Someone wasn't following the rules. I doubt that the brightness of bike lights would have made any difference in this case. I do ride at night occasionally during events, but I don't like it.

Our local randonneuring club frequently rides all night. Thinking back on it, we have more problems in daylight. I think we slow down and are more cautious at night. Commuters do seem more likely to have serious accidents at night. Maybe the environment, maybe the number of cycling hours? In the city, most commuters I see are wearing black, very poorly lit, and take what are to me crazy chances. I understand that many bike commuters are doing it because of lack of funds or a DUI.

If you do ride at night, wear reflective clothing, a reflective Sam Browne belt, ankle bands, run the brightest lights you can (Dinotte are good), keep them charged, and act like a car.

Dunbar 03-13-14 04:55 PM

Can anyone explain what happened? I looked at the Google map view but I still don't understand what happened.

In the dark I ride with bright lights, plenty of reflective clothing and a mirror. And even then I never feel as safe as I do in daylight.

FBinNY 03-13-14 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574523)
One statistic suggests about a third of cycling fatalities occur at night. Nowhere near that fraction of cycling occurs at night. Do the math.

Yes, the serious accident rate is much higher at night. But what's missing from your analysis is the large number (maybe a majority) od cyclists who are unlighted or inadequately lighted. A properly lighted (front,rear and sides) is as visible at night as a rider in daylight. If you factor background camouflage, and distractions, a properly lighted night cyclist is probably more visible than one in the daytime, and certainly more than one hidden by the glare of a low sun at dawn or dusk.

What might be more valuable than speculation, or formulaic warnings of the hazards of night riding, is an accident reconstruction showing the position and speed of all the vehicles, and better yet a simulation done under the same light conditions to see what each person saw (or could or should have seen). That kind of reconstruction might show how and why the accident occurred, and how similar ones might be prevented.

Accidents like this are always sad, especially for those close to the people involved. They might be used to gain insights, but shouldn't be capitalized on by people trying to send some kind of message.

BTW- don't take anything I said here, except for a sense of sadness, as applying to this specific accident. I have no idea about whether the cyclists were properly lit or not, nor of the their lane positions, speed and direction, or any issue of possible cause. My post is simply to counter the notion that night riding is unreasonably dangerous. Many of have to do it as 4 season commuters, or at other times, and it can be as safe or risky as we make it.

Long Tom 03-14-14 12:47 AM

The most visible cyclists I've ever seen, while driving, were at night. Machka figured out they were in the early stages of a randonee... we just crossed paths up at Hood Canal in WA. They could not possibly be missed. A pack of 6-8 riders was WAY brighter than any car, or cars. Lesson: it is possible to be ridiculously visible at night on a bike in this day of LED's.

I run lights that are intended to be annoying to motorists in daylight. I will not die, because I didn't get noticed, over $100.

My heart hurts for the guys that got hit. An obvious lesson is: BE SEEN! I expect they'd agree, hindsight being 20/20 and all.

coasting 03-14-14 01:01 AM

why would anyone want to ride in the dark? i do it if i mis-time a ride or if i stick to a mup.

FBinNY 03-14-14 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coasting (Post 16576443)
why would anyone want to ride in the dark? i do it if i mis-time a ride or if i stick to a mup.

To get to work, to get home, or to train before or after work when daylight is only about 9 hours or so.

The math is easy, if you live far enough north commute to work by bike and work an 8 hour day, odds are you'll be riding in the dark at one point or another.

znomit 03-14-14 01:35 AM

Regardless of the stats and horror stories, cycling is still safer than blobbing on the couch, day or night.


Thoughts for the families of these guys.

banerjek 03-14-14 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16574523)
One statistic suggests about a third of cycling fatalities occur at night. Nowhere near that fraction of cycling occurs at night. Do the math.

This is because only a tiny percentage of people who ride at night have any sense. Despite the fact that decent lighting systems are now affordable, the vast majority of people use toy lights if they use any at all. They don't ride with appropriate reflective gear.

I don't know what happened in the accident in the article. Maybe there was an error in judgement on the part of the driver, the cyclists or both. And sometimes there are weird circumstances that lead to accidents.

But as someone who rode 5K miles in all weather conditions and in the dark for many years on two lane highways where a number of other cyclists were killed, there is nothing particularly unsafe about it. If you have proper lighting and attire, you are easily visible at much greater distances than you are in the daylight.

I would go so far as to say that I think riding in the dark is considerably safer than riding in bright sun (a serious safety problem that few people think about) if done properly.

banerjek 03-14-14 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunbar (Post 16575435)
Can anyone explain what happened? I looked at the Google map view but I still don't understand what happened.

The investigation is sorting this out, but the video is far more helpful than this thread for those purposes.

BoSoxYacht 03-14-14 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coasting (Post 16576443)
why would anyone want to ride in the dark? i do it if i mis-time a ride or if i stick to a mup.

I have lived car-free for over 20 years, so night commutes necessitate riding in the dark. Arizona summers are quite hot, so many folks enjoy night rides from June-September.

rpenmanparker 03-14-14 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16575639)
Yes, the serious accident rate is much higher at night. But what's missing from your analysis is the large number (maybe a majority) od cyclists who are unlighted or inadequately lighted. A properly lighted (front,rear and sides) is as visible at night as a rider in daylight. If you factor background camouflage, and distractions, a properly lighted night cyclist is probably more visible than one in the daytime, and certainly more than one hidden by the glare of a low sun at dawn or dusk.

What might be more valuable than speculation, or formulaic warnings of the hazards of night riding, is an accident reconstruction showing the position and speed of all the vehicles, and better yet a simulation done under the same light conditions to see what each person saw (or could or should have seen). That kind of reconstruction might show how and why the accident occurred, and how similar ones might be prevented.

Accidents like this are always sad, especially for those close to the people involved. They might be used to gain insights, but shouldn't be capitalized on by people trying to send some kind of message.

BTW- don't take anything I said here, except for a sense of sadness, as applying to this specific accident. I have no idea about whether the cyclists were properly lit or not, nor of the their lane positions, speed and direction, or any issue of possible cause. My post is simply to counter the notion that night riding is unreasonably dangerous. Many of have to do it as 4 season commuters, or at other times, and it can be as safe or risky as we make it.

Your reasoning provides some valuable insights, and I value the discussion we (all) have had on this topic. However, I think it unfair to dismiss my genuine concern for other riders' safety as "formulaic warnings" and "trying to send some kind of message". If I represent a position of extreme caution on this topic which doesn't convince many others, so be it. That doesn't diminish the honest concern I feel for riders' safety and my desire to speak to it as I deem appropriate. I certainly have nothing to gain from delivering the message.

gregf83 03-14-14 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpenmanparker (Post 16576815)
Your reasoning provides some valuable insights, and I value the discussion we (all) have had on this topic. However, I think it unfair to dismiss my genuine concern for other riders' safety as "formulaic warnings" and "trying to send some kind of message". If I represent a position of extreme caution on this topic which doesn't convince many others, so be it. That doesn't diminish the honest concern I feel for riders' safety and my desire to speak to it as I deem appropriate. I certainly have nothing to gain from delivering the message.

There's no logical reason you wouldn't extend your 'concern' to all bike riders. You are using a relative risk argument to suggest one shouldn't ride at night as it's more dangerous than riding in the day. I can make the same argument that you shouldn't ride at all outdoors (night or day) as it's more dangerous than other forms of exercise.

We understand you're uncomfortable riding at night but many of us who regularly ride in the dark are comfortable with the risk.

rpenmanparker 03-14-14 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregf83 (Post 16576860)
We understand you're uncomfortable riding at night but many of us who regularly ride in the dark are comfortable with the risk.

As you have made completely clear. That is the kind of end point one expects from a debate.


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