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  1. #26
    Senior Member Jakedatc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Maybe practice makes perfect? Isn't there a breathing technique required to wind instruments?
    that is circular breathing, it is so they can produce uninterrupted sound for longer. It is hard and I've tried but can't do it. I had band leaders and friends who could do it. It is definitely not something that you could apply to physical work, you don't get enough volume in or out.

    i read a thing this week that breathing OUT is more important than breathing in because the CO2 is more detrimental to your performance than lack any lack of O2.

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    your FTP is set way too high. I can chat at 80-90% of FTP no problem.
    Like I said, looking at my power data I'm fairly certain that's not true. I'm not talking while I do intervals. I'm talking about having a fairly long winded (no pun intended) conversation.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Hint: Canadians make love doggie style so they can both watch the hockey game, too.

    True story.
    Completely true. My wife draws the line when I try to balance my beer on the small of her back.

  4. #29
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmcdam View Post
    Completely true. My wife draws the line when I try to balance my beer on the small of her back.
    Yeah, that can go either way.



    The ex was not ok with this unless it was the play-offs.
    Last edited by Bob Dopolina; 03-13-14 at 06:51 PM.
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  5. #30
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Yeah, that can go either way.
    F...I was thinking this was Facebook and tried to "like" this.... Well there's always this

    OP - I wrote out a long post about FTP today but never hit the post button. You're overthinking your FTP. If you are having any difficulty talking at 60% then you're not at 60%. More in the 80-90% period. You have overestimated your FTP. It's ok. FTP is just a number and it changes often. Do tests. It is the only way to know.

  6. #31
    Maximus
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    Try farting while pedaling......that's almost impossible (I have to coast-fart-pedal), regardless of you FTP.

  7. #32
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Like I said, looking at my power data I'm fairly certain that's not true. I'm not talking while I do intervals. I'm talking about having a fairly long winded (no pun intended) conversation.
    70% should be Z2 man. How can you not have a conversation in Z2? My only guess is you did some pseudo FTP test where it gives you a really high number(8min ftp test comes to mind).

    I can ride in Z2 for 4 hours...
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  8. #33
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    F...I was thinking this was Facebook and tried to "like" this.... Well there's always this

    OP - I wrote out a long post about FTP today but never hit the post button. You're overthinking your FTP. If you are having any difficulty talking at 60% then you're not at 60%. More in the 80-90% period. You have overestimated your FTP. It's ok. FTP is just a number and it changes often. Do tests. It is the only way to know.
    what weird cycling cap dude said
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    I can ride in Z2 for 4 hours...
    I think you guys are overthinking it. I have no problem hitting power numbers when I'm doing intervals.

    Here is the power summary from my interval session Tuesday. Here is the power summary for my easy ride the next day when I was getting winded while talking.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 03-13-14 at 10:04 PM.

  10. #35
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    All I know is, on Day 2 of last year's RI MS150 (after doing the century option on Day 1 in 87 degree humid heat), talking to another rider got me through the next-to last leg (in 88 degree humid heat). Talking made me forget how much I was suffering.

    This winter demonstrated seriously elevated fitness over last year on the trainer, so hopefully the misery index will be lower this year and I can chat just to be sociable.

  11. #36
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    I think you guys are overthinking it. I have no problem hitting power numbers when I'm doing intervals.

    Here is the power summary from my interval session Tuesday. Here is the power summary for my easy ride the next day when I was getting winded while talking.
    Honestly I can't read either of those. Regardless - it doesn't really matter. You can only estimate an FTP based off of all of your data and files put together with a power profile or through fairly standard testing protocol. Intervals are intervals....not tests. Seriously - you've overestimated your ftp if this happens often. If it's a 1 off it could be built up training stress.

    Not saying all or any of this applies to you just wanting to put out some basic FTP facts that it seems a lot of people who attempt to train with power seem to not fully grasp until they stop and think about it.

    1. FTP is just a number. It isn't a genital measuring device.
    2. FTP is a number used to help understand your specific physiology and help guide your training efforts.
    3. Saying you have an FTP that is too high is just as worthless as saying you have one that is too low. Both will negatively impact any training you undertake as training with power is based on that number.
    4. If you're not using your FTP to target your training then why are you using power? There is absolutely no need for it. See point number 1.
    5. FTP changes. Conditioning and form will change it. It is possible to have it swing to great extent even within the span of a season.
    6. The only way to know your FTP for certain is to test it. Again....and again. Do different protocols and look at the data. it is quite possible you get different FTP values depending on the type of test you do. You have to interpret what that means about your physiology.
    7. You WILL have different FTP numbers for inside (trainer) training and outside training. Your training in each environment should reflect that. Most find they are higher outside than inside FWIW.
    8. No ride, race, event, etc has ever been achieved, won, finished, or participated in by someone's FTP value. It is meaningless outside of targeted training for yourself and no one else.

    Exception to #1 ....for those of us who put together teams and/or coaches - studying FTP/weight ratios as well as CP values for varying times (power profile) allow us to make broad sweeping divisions between distinct levels of talent. EG: 1-2W/kg @ FTP vs 3.5-4.5W/kg @ftp. Cat 4/5 vs Cat 1/2/3 squads....but it has little to do with what races they are good at or how they will perform in general. Racing is about more than power.

    Based on those two tiny graphs and what you're saying I would venture a guess (albeit without a lot of data) that your power profile is a bit more like me in terms of the style of rider you are. You most likely have more fast twitch muscles, can achieve high power output for shorter duration intervals (3-5-10 minutes) but suffer during long steady state lower power efforts (easy group rides, endurance rides). You most likely have a good anaerobic engine but suffer on the Aerobic side.

    Many coaches believe that you need to train your weaknesses - therefore in this case they would say your best bet is to sit there and do 2x20's with 5 minutes in between....always and forever. Personally that work makes me want to blow my brains out. There are some higher level coaches who are good at working with more anaerobic animals like us that can tweak our engines to not get dropped during the long steady state stuff - allowing us to be around when the shiz hits the fan and we can power dump.

    Just my $0.02. If it applies to you then great. If not then it's just out here for information and discussion purposes.

    What I had written before but didn't post also included this tidbit. In the computrainer training center I run we frequently do SST/subthreshold work in order to influence or accelerate FTP gains at this time of the year. We test as soon as someone joins, but if they haven't been riding a trainer and this is the first time for the season then they will make gains in FTP just from developing the muscle memory of riding on a trainer. I catch these artificially too low FTPs when we do a heavy SST interval where the rider is at 88%-92% for extended periods of time. If they are talking after the first minute or two of the interval then their FTP is too low. Period. I walk over and increase it on the spot. That almost always shuts them up but they find over time that the increase was accurate. Conversely the individual who tested and is now having to stop during the interval and is getting too winded on the warmup - we drop their FTP and suddenly the perform at the level that everyone else is....as it should be as they are all FTP based workouts. Sometimes this is simply due to differences in physiology.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    Not saying all or any of this applies to you just wanting to put out some basic FTP facts that it seems a lot of people who attempt to train with power seem to not fully grasp until they stop and think about it.
    Fair enough, I think that's good info. Here is a bigger photo of the interval ride and here is the easy ride where I was getting winded talking. I have access to a lot more info than this as well. All it of suggests that my FTP is not being grossly overestimated like you guys kept saying. That's all I was taking issue with.

  13. #38
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Why do you link the 25W distribution? I'm confused.

    Whats your FTP and what test did you use to arrive at that number?
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  14. #39
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Fair enough, I think that's good info. Here is a bigger photo of the interval ride and here is the easy ride where I was getting winded talking. I have access to a lot more info than this as well. All it of suggests that my FTP is not being grossly overestimated like you guys kept saying. That's all I was taking issue with.
    Classic 41. Ask a simple question, get a straightforward answer, then argue when you don't like the answer. The data you have posted does not demonstrate what you think it does.

    If you have not grossly overestimated your FTP, then you need to get to a medical doctor ASAP, because you have a serious medical problem. Or, you might have a lower level of aerobic fitness than you like to think you do. The second alternative involves swallowing some pride, but it fits the facts perfectly and much more elegantly than some mysterious undiagnosed cardiovascular problem.

    There is no magic to riding at a moderate pace and talking. If you cannot talk, then it is not an moderate pace for you. Trying to redefine "moderate" because it feels good for your ego will not change how your body gets O2 to your muscles.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    Classic 41.
    Classic 41 is right, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the buffoonery here anymore. I'll be sure to head straight to the doctor based on your expert 41 medical credentials...

    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    Why do you link the 25W distribution? I'm confused.
    25w distribution from an interval session vs an easy ride. It should be pretty clear from looking at the two I'm not grossly overestimating my FTP.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 03-14-14 at 12:17 PM.

  16. #41
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    lol "If I don't want to believe it, it is not true!"

  17. #42
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    25w distribution from an interval session vs an easy ride. It should be pretty clear from looking at the two I'm not grossly overestimating my FTP.
    Gotta take issue with this....no it's not. It's is actually meaningless in a vacuum. We don't have any information on the length/duration or consistency of the intervals. I can easily product histograms with that much power in each bucket and still have an ftp of roughly 200. Seriously. I don't think you're clear on what FTP really stands for. It's not CP or critical power at a duration (outside of 60 min of course).

    In other words you can easily have an FTP of 200 but still be able to do 10x3 minutes at 300 in a 2 hour ride for 30 minutes at 300 ...but averaging 200 over 2 hours.....

    Honestly that looks eerily like a lot of my rides and while my ftp has ranged from 210-270 over the years....I'd call your FTP more like 220 reviewing this file.

    Hell my FTP is 210 right now but I can crank out 1300W for 15 seconds. Peak power at a given time interval (CP) outside of 60 minutes is not FTP.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    Honestly that looks eerily like a lot of my rides and while my ftp has ranged from 210-270 over the years....I'd call your FTP more like 220 reviewing this file.
    I currently have my FTP set at 280w. I think that may be a little low but haven't been able to test it in a while. Here is the power curve from the interval ride. Someone with an FTP of 220 can't push 300 watts continuously for close to 10 minutes...not possible...unless they have their FTP set low. Average/Normalized/Weighted power over the course of a ride where I ride in Los Angeles (with traffic lights, stop signs, people, cars) has very little correlation to FTP.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 03-14-14 at 12:39 PM.

  19. #44
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    I currently have my FTP set at 280w. I think that may be a little low but haven't been able to test it in a while. Here is the power curve from the interval ride. Someone with an FTP of 220 can't push 300 watts continuously for close to 10 minutes...not possible...unless they have their FTP set low. Average/Normalized/Weighted power over the course of a ride where I ride in Los Angeles (with traffic lights, stop signs, people, cars) has very little correlation to FTP.
    Yeah...if that is normalized power your FTP is more like 220. Seriously. For sure. Don't argue about it just get on a trainer and go all out for 20 minutes and post the curve. That or send me a pile of your power files over time - race ones even better and I can give you a fairly certain indication. Honestly. And...yes...you can...on the 300 bit. Just checked my power curve and all time duration peak for 300W and it is 12 minutes. and at that time my FTP was roughly 250. Seriously man...you've got your FTP WAY overestimated. It's OK. It doesn't mean you're less of a man. It means your training zones are set incorrectly and most likely you ar overloading yourself too hard. You'll actually start to get faster if you ease off. This is what I mean about it not being a measuring device. Knowing it's lower than you thought doesn't make you somehow slower all of a sudden. It just means you'll train better.

    Seriously...do a test.

    Power.jpg

  20. #45
    Senior Member MinnMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Classic 41 is right, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the buffoonery here anymore. I'll be sure to head straight to the doctor based on your expert 41 medical credentials...
    Dunbar, has it occurred to you that when you are in a hole the first thing to do is to stop digging? You came here and asked for some input. Some people with a great deal of expertise (it's pretty clear you don't actually know psimet's background, for example) have taken the time to give you some good information, and because you don't like their answers, you call them names.

    I suggest you take a deep breath, go out for a nice hard (quiet) ride, and refrain from posting more on this thread until you've gained a little grace.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    Yeah...if that is normalized power your FTP is more like 220. Seriously. For sure. Don't argue about it just get on a trainer and go all out for 20 minutes and post the curve.
    Sorry mate, but I think you're wrong. Anyone who can push 300 watts (120% of FTP) for 12 minutes continuously does not have an FTP of 250. Especially if they can do it back to back during an interval session. The first interval I averaged 283w, the second one I averaged 275w. Even using conservative estimates I'd be at 250-260w which means I'm not grossly overestimating FTP. I have access to a lot more of my power data than just these two rides. Normalized power over the course of the ride where I am is useless for determining FTP.

    In any event none of this explains why I'm getting winded riding at 100w+ less than these numbers. But I guess we're well past that point...
    Last edited by Dunbar; 03-14-14 at 01:26 PM.

  22. #47
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    BB's 29 Cent Lemonade Stand: Training Zones explained...

    This seems apropos

    Rather than heart rate, watts, etc..., LMN said it narrows down to this...
    1. Old lady pace
    2. Chatty pace
    3. Feel good hard
    4. Feel bad hard
    5. I am going to die
    6. Flat out

  23. #48
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Sorry mate, but I think you're wrong. Anyone who can push 300 watts (120% of FTP) for 12 minutes continuously does not have an FTP of 250. Especially if they can do it back to back during an interval session. The first interval I averaged 283w, the second one I averaged 275w. Even using conservative estimates I'd be at 260w which means I'm not grossly overestimating FTP...Normalized power over the course of the ride where I am is useless for determining FTP.

    In any event none of this explains why I'm getting winded riding at 100w+ less than these numbers. But I guess we're well past that point...
    Yeah it does. Your FTP is 220-230. That's why you were winded and will be on a steady state ride in the 180-200 range.

  24. #49
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Seriously only an FTP will show you what your FTP is. Post a test. Done.

  25. #50
    Senior Member RPK79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    BB's 29 Cent Lemonade Stand: Training Zones explained...

    This seems apropos

    Rather than heart rate, watts, etc..., LMN said it narrows down to this...
    1. Old lady pace
    2. Chatty pace
    3. Feel good hard
    4. Feel bad hard
    5. I am going to die
    6. Flat out
    Those are the zones I use when training.

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