Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-19-14, 12:27 AM   #176
Dunbar
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Dunbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)



Last edited by Dunbar; 03-19-14 at 12:38 AM.
Dunbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 05:38 AM   #177
svtmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Bikes: S-Works Roubaix SL2^H4, Secteur Sport, TriCross, Kaffenback, Lurcher 29er
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So based on that, an estimate of your current FTP is 255W. If you're training based on an FTP of 280, it's set a good 10% too high. That is a very substantial difference that you would notice when doing aerobic length interval workouts (especially sweet spot/threshold with repeats), because it essentially puts your target power a full zone too high.
svtmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 06:50 AM   #178
achoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think 255 might be a bit high for a few reasons. First, that 20 min interval is right at the beginning of the ride - meaning the rider's full anaerobic capacity can be used to generate power. I also see a dip in HR towards the end, implying a drop off in power generation, although it's hard to tell from a screen cap from Garmin's site as there's not enough detail. Terrain and/or traffic could have been an issue, but that HR dip does imply that the early parts of the interval were overdone. Third, outside of the final burst, power levels look like they trend downward over the course of the interval.

All those are consistent with anaerobic power generation adding to aerobic power. But we're trying to measure purely aerobic power.

I'd call it 245W if I had base it off just this one ride. But again, it's only one 20-minute interval. I've done FTP tests where I couldn't hold 90% of an FTP value that was known good for 10 minutes, much less 105% for 20. Some days just suck.
achoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 06:59 AM   #179
svtmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Bikes: S-Works Roubaix SL2^H4, Secteur Sport, TriCross, Kaffenback, Lurcher 29er
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Agreed. I think dunbar has a pretty good short-term anaerobic capacity (I think that's what Coggan is getting at with FRC in the next release of WKO+) and a relatively weaker aerobic capacity.

The test was also done on a pretty fair grade (11.2mph average speed) so he might have been more in the "climbing threshold" kind of range that some trainers reference -- low cadence above-threshold efforts that can be sustained for a fair bit.
svtmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 08:54 AM   #180
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yay!! Data! On my phone so it's hard to see what that curve says at an hour. 20min @255 corresponds to 242 FTP (95% of a 20 minute effort). Getting winded at 80-90% of FTP is what we've been saying. That would get you to the point where it's hard to talk as soon as you cross 190 and into the 200 range. That's normal.

Congrats. You have the same kind of anaerobic engine that I have. I believe that's what I called and one of my first posts. Assuming you can eventually get your weight into the 160 range you can be fairly competitive in cat 5 crits.
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 08:56 AM   #181
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For the record that qualifies as a gross over estimation. 40 points on 240. That comes out to 16%. Your training targets should be substantially changed. You will also see much better gains now.
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 09:08 AM   #182
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,054
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
I also think 255 is probably a bit high. Take a look at the cumulative six weeks power curve. At 1 hr, Dunbar is right at 200 watts, substantially below the tested 255. That supports the theory that Dunbar has a good ability to use anaerobic power to maintain a higher power output over a shorter interval effort and helps explain why he is having trouble maintaining a conversation during what he describes as moderate efforts.

Also, and this needs to be said, FTP is nothing more than a point for individual measurement. I have a rather low FTP, but it has not held me back in racing.
topflightpro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 09:19 AM   #183
achoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by svtmike View Post
Agreed. I think dunbar has a pretty good short-term anaerobic capacity (I think that's what Coggan is getting at with FRC in the next release of WKO+) and a relatively weaker aerobic capacity.

The test was also done on a pretty fair grade (11.2mph average speed) so he might have been more in the "climbing threshold" kind of range that some trainers reference -- low cadence above-threshold efforts that can be sustained for a fair bit.
I just took a quick look at FRC. How is it different from AWC (anaerobic work capacity)? AWC has been in GoldenCheetah for quite a while now.
achoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 09:32 AM   #184
achoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 4,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I also think 255 is probably a bit high. Take a look at the cumulative six weeks power curve. At 1 hr, Dunbar is right at 200 watts, substantially below the tested 255. That supports the theory that Dunbar has a good ability to use anaerobic power to maintain a higher power output over a shorter interval effort and helps explain why he is having trouble maintaining a conversation during what he describes as moderate efforts.
I think that's likely a product of his training regimen. He's not doing any longer z2/3 rides where he's sitting at, say, 80% of FTP for 90 or 120 minutes with little to zero breaks. I seem to remember he posted that he doesn't ride where he can go non-stop for more than a few minutes at a time, making it really hard to both develop and measure the ability to actually generate steady long-term aerobic power.

Quote:
Also, and this needs to be said, FTP is nothing more than a point for individual measurement. I have a rather low FTP, but it has not held me back in racing.
I'm pretty much the exact opposite - good power numbers, crappy results.
achoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 11:31 AM   #185
svtmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Bikes: S-Works Roubaix SL2^H4, Secteur Sport, TriCross, Kaffenback, Lurcher 29er
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Yay!! Data! On my phone so it's hard to see what that curve says at an hour. 20min @255 corresponds to 242 FTP (95% of a 20 minute effort).
It was 20min @ 268, for an estimate of 255 (95%).
svtmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 11:33 AM   #186
svtmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Bikes: S-Works Roubaix SL2^H4, Secteur Sport, TriCross, Kaffenback, Lurcher 29er
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by achoo View Post
I just took a quick look at FRC. How is it different from AWC (anaerobic work capacity)? AWC has been in GoldenCheetah for quite a while now.
I know Coggan claims it is different, but I don't remember the details -- it's been a while since I watched the webinars discussing the next version of WKO+. Conceptually they seem very similar to me.
svtmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 11:54 AM   #187
Wesley36
Senior Member
 
Wesley36's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by svtmike View Post
I know Coggan claims it is different, but I don't remember the details -- it's been a while since I watched the webinars discussing the next version of WKO+. Conceptually they seem very similar to me.
If you are interested, there is some discussion of FRC vs AWC over on the Wattage group (a Google group that Coggan is quite active on). There was also recently a big thread on the difference between FTP and CP60. FWIW, in both threads there is a mix of genuine intellectual discussion and unproductive name-calling, and no clear definitive answers.
Wesley36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 12:04 PM   #188
RPK79
Senior Member
 
RPK79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: SE MN
Bikes: Fuji Roubaix Pro & Fuji Track Classic
Posts: 8,066
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 382 Post(s)
Love how the whole conversation changed after 8 pages when the data finally came into play. Let this be a lesson to future posters to just open with the data from the get go.
RPK79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 12:18 PM   #189
svtmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Bikes: S-Works Roubaix SL2^H4, Secteur Sport, TriCross, Kaffenback, Lurcher 29er
Posts: 2,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
If you are interested, there is some discussion of FRC vs AWC over on the Wattage group (a Google group that Coggan is quite active on). There was also recently a big thread on the difference between FTP and CP60. FWIW, in both threads there is a mix of genuine intellectual discussion and unproductive name-calling, and no clear definitive answers.
I haven't been on wattage in quite a while; I'll check it out.

The impression I got from all of the WKO4 webinars was that the WKO models are better and different mathematically (certainly a necessary assertion for a patent). But from a practical point of view, given the imprecision of the human machine and its day-to-day variation, I'm not sure there's a significant practical difference for most cyclists. I'm pretty sure there isn't for me.
svtmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 02:47 PM   #190
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I also think 255 is probably a bit high. Take a look at the cumulative six weeks power curve. At 1 hr, Dunbar is right at 200 watts, substantially below the tested 255. That supports the theory that Dunbar has a good ability to use anaerobic power to maintain a higher power output over a shorter interval effort and helps explain why he is having trouble maintaining a conversation during what he describes as moderate efforts.

Also, and this needs to be said, FTP is nothing more than a point for individual measurement. I have a rather low FTP, but it has not held me back in racing.
i did say it in my numbered points about FTP on one of the first few pages.

Agreed on the hour but he's said he doesn't have power data for serious rides over an hour in length so it's kinda what we got to go with.

Dunbar - keep building the power files and populate that curve over time. It will help you identify a lot about your own psyiology and capability.
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 02:49 PM   #191
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by svtmike View Post
I haven't been on wattage in quite a while; I'll check it out.

The impression I got from all of the WKO4 webinars was that the WKO models are better and different mathematically (certainly a necessary assertion for a patent). But from a practical point of view, given the imprecision of the human machine and its day-to-day variation, I'm not sure there's a significant practical difference for most cyclists. I'm pretty sure there isn't for me.
Haven't been on there since I became a powertap dealer and powertaps stopped being so maintenance heavy.
Would agree with your patent assertion and general conclusions for riders.
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-14, 05:27 PM   #192
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by svtmike View Post
It was 20min @ 268, for an estimate of 255 (95%).
Totally missed that on my phone, my apologies.
Psimet2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-14, 01:05 AM   #193
Long Tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Go Ducks!
Bikes:
Posts: 1,533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
I've been chatting with some fellow cyclists while out on my normal rides and who would've thought it could be so hard? I'll be cruising along at 60-70% of FTP, chatting away, and feel like I'm about to run out of breath if I talk too long. Is this a skill one needs to learn?
Late last summer, I was ready to snatch the pebble from my master's hand. The backstory: he got me started cycling. Riding with him prior, when he was in shape and I was not, would drive me nuts when we climbed big steep hills. I'd be dying, and I'd look over, and he'd be barely panting. Or the SOB would bust out in a STORY!

So fall comes around and I'd gotten all obsessed with riding and caught, then passed, his conditioning level. It helped that he went backwards due to getting sick, traveling, etc.

So we did my hilly 50-mile route, that I'd been pounding every other day like clockwork for weeks, and about 3/4 up a particularly nasty wench of a hill, I'm fine but he's clearly suffering, and I said: so, tell me a story!

It was, like, so cool.
Long Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-14, 04:40 PM   #194
Dunbar
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Dunbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Getting better at pacing myself. Averaged 285w for 20 minutes up the same climb today. Started slightly under target power and didn't feel like I was dying half way up this time.
Dunbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-14, 04:50 PM   #195
f4rrest 
Farmer tan
 
f4rrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Burbank, CA
Bikes: Allez, SuperSix Evo
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 134 Post(s)
Was looking forward to your update. Thanks for keeping the thread going.
Where is the climb, by the way?
f4rrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-14, 04:56 PM   #196
Dunbar
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Dunbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by f4rrest View Post
Where is the climb, by the way?
A BF member suggested it to me - Mandeville (aka Mandeville Canyon Rd) - is a popular climb with roadies in the Santa Monica / Brentwood area. One of the few places you can go 20 minutes uninterrupted around here.

Here's a video of the climb (not my video.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_wQniTxqoQ

Last edited by Dunbar; 03-22-14 at 08:15 PM.
Dunbar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:36 PM.