You'll eventually see 105 Di2, but it won't be until there's some sort of external pressure for it. Campy has 3 electric groups, but they don't target the same set of consumers. For new mainstream road bikes (where all the dollars are), it's a SRAM/Shimano world.
So, yeah, Shimano is interested in how much money they can get. IF they could offer a quality version of 105 Di2 at a 105-ish pricepoint, they would. But for one reason or another, they simply can't.
EDIT: I just want to be clear that this is all rampant speculation on my part from observation. I have zero inside knowledge. So I could be totally wrong, of course. But that's what I think.
Last edited by grolby; 03-31-14 at 03:37 PM.
Climbs like a stone, descends like two...
Regarding the feedback issue, I don't think there's a particular attribute of mechanical groups that makes them better for feedback. It's true that right now there is a difference between Shimano's mechanical and Di2 groups and this respect. I haven't tried the Campy EPS groups, but I understand they do address that issue much better.
There are perfectly good practical arguments to fall back on in defense of a cabled system. You never need to charge a battery in order to ride your bike, you can replace a cable at home, etc. Those arguments will be relevant in ten years. As electronic shifting gets more prevalent and people get used to it, the purity argument won't be.
As an aside, I have a product I make in small quatities for a brewery. They just ordered 20 more. There was a TON of upfront design and fixturing time on this, which I can't bill for. You just have to wrap it into the cost of the product. So- a few days ago when an owner of the brewery was quizzing me about alternative (cheaper) ways to try to do it, which would have meant a whole new round of unpaid effort on my part, I was utterly uninterested. I'm finally to the point where I can make THIS design efficiently and make a good hourly on it. I'm in the fat part of the curve.
I think this plays out in the bike world. Shimano is going to do everything they can to recoup what must be a massive R&D and tooling investment in electronic shifting. Can't blame them. What the consumer wants and what is right for a company don't always align. When they've milked the DA and Ultegra crowd for all they can, they'll move the tech downwards. No sooner.
Every time that wheel turn 'round,
Bound to cover just a little more ground!
If you want Di2, Shimano is going to make you pay for it.
Historically, 105 has basically been the last generation Ultegra. This time, Shimano trickled-down everything but Di2.
Again, you want it? You gotta pay for it.
Di2's a premium product and Shimano wants to charge a premium for it. Happens in cars all the time. Last I checked (it has been a while...), you couldn't get a Toyota with radio controls on the steering wheel. That was a Lexus-only feature. With one exception - the top-end Toyota minivan. And Toyota isn't ever going to make a Lexus minivan....
Shimano markets Di2 as special and exclusive. IMO they're going to keep it that way by limitiing it to their high-end (and high-margin) brands as long as they can. Once SRAM comes out with electronic shifting (if ever), then Shimano will dump Di2 into 105. Until then? Why?
I often wonder what slice of cyclists BF represents. And I am not saying that negatively, just that I think most of us are gear junkies. In the group that I ride with, I can't think of a single road bike with Di2. Several tri bikes, but no road bikes. This is out of a rotating group of about 70 avid cyclists, most with Red or DuraAce bikes. There are two guys that talk about it, but neither ride it. One guy likes it in theory because he has no mechanical skill, the other guy bought a Colnago with it, but he won't go to a shop to get it set up.
Granted this is a tiny slice of people, but it just doesn't seem that common at this point. I really wonder if high BF interest represents high actual market interest. Tri folks love it, and have money, and that makes sense. I just wonder if the road side is that strong.
Last edited by Dunbar; 03-31-14 at 04:38 PM.
Man...I admit surprise that Shimano didn't take a page out of Campy's book by relegating their lower groupset to 10s.
105 is going to be VERY popular...but that said, many just will pay a bit more for 6800 which is very fairly priced.
I am not surprised that a lot of 6800 trickled down but to make 105 11s really surprises me. I likely won't ride it but no doubt it will be excellent and very popular.
Incidentally, you're dead wrong on 105 being historically the previous generation of Ultegra, at least counting the last three major group set revisions. 5500, 5600 and now 5700 have all been the same technological generation as the preceding Dura-Ace group (respectively, 7800, 7900, 9000). So that's something to consider.
Hmmm, cables just got 10x more expensive. Whats the payback time on electronic?
i.e... bike manufacture tries to sell you an ultegra "class" bike.. by just giving you ultegra derailleurs (and then skimping on the components you don't notice as much.. like cassette / chain / shifters).
Tiagra / Sora... those budget groups... they probably won't get 11 speed for a while.
For DI2 105... there might not be a big enough market for it yet. electronic shifting is still very niche ... and your budget rider choosing 105 probably doesn't want to spend the extra money going electric shifting. those extra dollars are probably better spent else where. (Ultegra, better wheels, nicer frame...)
I'm sure it'll trickle down eventually. But i can see disc brakes becoming more mainstream before electronic shifting does.
That's my 2cents.
Meh, so the only big changes I see is that octopus crank and 11spd. If the FD is compatible with the 10, I'll probably buy one though, the newer spring and longer arm is tempting.
I won't debate whether electric shifter shifts better since I can't debate it. But just want to say, I haven't had any issues with shifting on 5700 or my older 2300. Both had great, fast, crisp shifting and when tuned, neither had any skipping or missed shifting issues.
Last edited by zymphad; 03-31-14 at 06:18 PM.
I can't see how DI2 is any more expensive to produce than mechanical. Electric motors? Gear boxes? wires? PCBs? Child's play. Slap it together and use software to calibrate it. When it gets a lower retail price than mechanical, I'm switching. Yes, even a Luddite like Jigglebabble.
I'm just waiting to talk to someone in person who has owned Di2 for a few years riding in snow and crappy weather all year round before considering it. Someone who doesn't treat his Di2 as only fair weather gear. Haven't met anyone like that yet.