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  1. #26
    Senior Member MagicHour's Avatar
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    +1 - even if I was given a wad of $$$ and could have any bike I wanted I'd still go mechanical...for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricanfred View Post
    I know quite a few cyclists that have no desire to go electronic.

    For sure....

  2. #27
    Senior Member kv501's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    I think Shimano very much wants to do this, but that it's just not possible to move Di2 downmarket and preserve the shifting performance they want right now.
    It's totally possible. But you have to realize that Shimano is interested in making money, nothing more. As long as a lot of people are still willing to pay premium pricing for 9070 and 6780 there's no way they will dilute that by adding another group. Shimano execs aren't in a boardroom somewhere saying, "Hey, there are a bunch of people who want a cheaper Di2 group. How about we give up some of our bigger margins on Ultegra sales to make them happy." I know it's easy to get blinders on because these are products we are interested in, but at the end of the day you have to realize that Shimano doesn't care what we want, they care about how much money we'll give them.

    You'll eventually see 105 Di2, but it won't be until there's some sort of external pressure for it. Campy has 3 electric groups, but they don't target the same set of consumers. For new mainstream road bikes (where all the dollars are), it's a SRAM/Shimano world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Are you aware that this is a pedal bike forum?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricanfred View Post
    I know quite a few cyclists that have no desire to go electronic.
    I think it's all kinda of lazy for electronic shifting, not to mention 1 more thing to go wrong

    I'll keep my mechanical

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjp View Post
    I currently have no real desire to go electric. When it becomes wireless I might be more interested. Lot less clutter on the bike. Maybe small integrated batteries in the derailleurs, shifters with no wires (wireless brakes?), etc.
    I actually cannot wait for wireless shifting...Imagine sitting at the top of a steep hill with a cellphone that can send out a signal for the drive train to shift into higher gears. Oh the antics!

  5. #30
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricanfred View Post
    I know quite a few cyclists that have no desire to go electronic.
    Their desires are irrelevant with respect to both Shimano's product roadmap and the actual technical merits of electronic vs. cabled shifting. There are quite a few cyclists who had no desire to go to indexed shifting. There are still options to cater to those people, but they do not have a particularly large presence in the market. And of course indexed shifting is much superior to friction shifting.

  6. #31
    Beer >> Sanity bikerjp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Sarcasm View Post
    I actually cannot wait for wireless shifting...Imagine sitting at the top of a steep hill with a cellphone that can send out a signal for the drive train to shift into higher gears. Oh the antics!
    That would be fun for sure, but I suspect any realistic wireless setup would use a pairing strategy to prevent that. But then teams will look for ways to hack rivals.
    Climbs like a stone, descends like two...

  7. #32
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kv501 View Post
    It's totally possible. But you have to realize that Shimano is interested in making money, nothing more. As long as a lot of people are still willing to pay premium pricing for 9070 and 6780 there's no way they will dilute that by adding another group. Shimano execs aren't in a boardroom somewhere saying, "Hey, there are a bunch of people who want a cheaper Di2 group. How about we give up some of our bigger margins on Ultegra sales to make them happy." I know it's easy to get blinders on because these are products we are interested in, but at the end of the day you have to realize that Shimano doesn't care what we want, they care about how much money we'll give them.

    You'll eventually see 105 Di2, but it won't be until there's some sort of external pressure for it. Campy has 3 electric groups, but they don't target the same set of consumers. For new mainstream road bikes (where all the dollars are), it's a SRAM/Shimano world.
    No, that's not Shimano's strategy. They don't make nearly as much money off of DA and Ultegra as they do 105. They push tech downmarket for this reason - get people excited when it comes out at the high end, then it looks awesome when they start selling it at the more prosaic 105 pricepoint a couple of years later. They've been doing this for 30 years. 105 Di2 is almost certainly technically possible on some level, but the fact that it still hasn't appeared makes me think that it just isn't feasible for that level of production yet, either because the QC isn't there, or it's economically challenging or both. Look, which do you think generates more revenue for Volkswagen: Bugattis or Golfs? Same idea. It doesn't matter that you have a set of customers willing to pay a huge premium for Dura-Ace or Ultegra Di2, you have so many more willing to pay a lower price for 105 that you swamp the profits you're able to get from the high-rollers.

    So, yeah, Shimano is interested in how much money they can get. IF they could offer a quality version of 105 Di2 at a 105-ish pricepoint, they would. But for one reason or another, they simply can't.

    EDIT: I just want to be clear that this is all rampant speculation on my part from observation. I have zero inside knowledge. So I could be totally wrong, of course. But that's what I think.
    Last edited by grolby; 03-31-14 at 03:37 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    There are quite a few cyclists who had no desire to go to indexed shifting.
    I'm pretty sure it all comes down to cost. Get the price point low enough and most of the objections will vanish.

    I think you can make a case that good mechanical group sets give more feedback to the rider than electronic.

  9. #34
    Beer >> Sanity bikerjp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    I'm pretty sure it all comes down to cost. Get the price point low enough and most of the objections will vanish.

    I think you can make a case that good mechanical group sets give more feedback to the rider than electronic.
    That's probably true for a good portion of riders and many just want the latest and greatest. However, there will still be riders who like the mechanical aspect of riding a bike (it's not a moped) and want to keep it that way. Just as some prefer a stick over an automatic. If cost was equal I'd still opt for a quality mechanical group. If electronic was a lot cheaper then that's another issue.
    Climbs like a stone, descends like two...

  10. #35
    Senior Member Jed19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    I'm pretty sure it all comes down to cost. Get the price point low enough and most of the objections will vanish.

    I think you can make a case that good mechanical group sets give more feedback to the rider than electronic.
    When the chips are down, feedback ranks much lower on the satisfaction scale. Everybody, their mom and grandpa are gonna want to be on electronic shifting when their price point is reached. People sometimes don't know what they want, but once they try it, they realize they'll like to have it. That is how I think about Di2.
    Regards,

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  11. #36
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    I'm pretty sure it all comes down to cost. Get the price point low enough and most of the objections will vanish.

    I think you can make a case that good mechanical group sets give more feedback to the rider than electronic.
    Yes, I agree - when you can buy Di2 for the same price as a mechanical group, it will fly off the shelves. That Shimano can self the stuff at such a high premium shows demand is high.

    Regarding the feedback issue, I don't think there's a particular attribute of mechanical groups that makes them better for feedback. It's true that right now there is a difference between Shimano's mechanical and Di2 groups and this respect. I haven't tried the Campy EPS groups, but I understand they do address that issue much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjp View Post
    That's probably true for a good portion of riders and many just want the latest and greatest. However, there will still be riders who like the mechanical aspect of riding a bike (it's not a moped) and want to keep it that way. Just as some prefer a stick over an automatic. If cost was equal I'd still opt for a quality mechanical group. If electronic was a lot cheaper then that's another issue.
    This is basically an argument about purity, and it's an emotional argument, not a factual one. That cabled bicycle shifting systems require the expenditure of energy stored in the rider's body as opposed to energy stored in a battery is just an artifact of the system's design, irrelevant to the role of the shifting system in how the bicycle functions. If you deconstruct the shifting system to it's most elementary requirements, there are two major components: first, some kind of mechanism to physically change gears, and second, some device to allow the rider to communicate their intentions to that mechanism. Mechanical systems use cable tension to communicate the rider's intention, and electronic systems use electrical signals to do the same job. So I am unimpressed by the purity argument, because I don't think it has any relevance at all to how the shifting mechanism actually functions (no offense, but equating an electronically-shifted bike to a moped seems especially laughable to me). There were philosophical objections to shifting gears at all back in the early 20th century, they at least had some functional weight.

    There are perfectly good practical arguments to fall back on in defense of a cabled system. You never need to charge a battery in order to ride your bike, you can replace a cable at home, etc. Those arguments will be relevant in ten years. As electronic shifting gets more prevalent and people get used to it, the purity argument won't be.

  12. #37
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    As an aside, I have a product I make in small quatities for a brewery. They just ordered 20 more. There was a TON of upfront design and fixturing time on this, which I can't bill for. You just have to wrap it into the cost of the product. So- a few days ago when an owner of the brewery was quizzing me about alternative (cheaper) ways to try to do it, which would have meant a whole new round of unpaid effort on my part, I was utterly uninterested. I'm finally to the point where I can make THIS design efficiently and make a good hourly on it. I'm in the fat part of the curve.

    I think this plays out in the bike world. Shimano is going to do everything they can to recoup what must be a massive R&D and tooling investment in electronic shifting. Can't blame them. What the consumer wants and what is right for a company don't always align. When they've milked the DA and Ultegra crowd for all they can, they'll move the tech downwards. No sooner.
    Every time that wheel turn 'round,
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    No, that's not Shimano's strategy. They don't make nearly as much money off of DA and Ultegra as they do 105. They push tech downmarket for this reason - get people excited when it comes out at the high end, then it looks awesome when they start selling it at the more prosaic 105 pricepoint a couple of years later. They've been doing this for 30 years. 105 Di2 is almost certainly technically possible on some level, but the fact that it still hasn't appeared makes me think that it just isn't feasible for that level of production yet, either because the QC isn't there, or it's economically challenging or both. Look, which do you think generates more revenue for Volkswagen: Bugattis or Golfs? Same idea. It doesn't matter that you have a set of customers willing to pay a huge premium for Dura-Ace or Ultegra Di2, you have so many more willing to pay a lower price for 105 that you swamp the profits you're able to get from the high-rollers.

    So, yeah, Shimano is interested in how much money they can get. IF they could offer a quality version of 105 Di2 at a 105-ish pricepoint, they would. But for one reason or another, they simply can't.

    EDIT: I just want to be clear that this is all rampant speculation on my part from observation. I have zero inside knowledge. So I could be totally wrong, of course. But that's what I think.
    I don't think so. I think Shimano is deliberatly keeping Di2 DA/Ultegra only so they can charge a premium. I also doubt there are yield and cost issues with making the electronic components. At this point in time it's probably just a matter cranking them out on the assembly line(s). The cost per unit would probably be a good bit lower if Shimano produced Di2 in quantities to make it part of the 105 line. But maybe selling Di2 as part of 105 cuts the selling cost so much that the profits on each sale are cut by 75 or 80%.

    If you want Di2, Shimano is going to make you pay for it.

    Historically, 105 has basically been the last generation Ultegra. This time, Shimano trickled-down everything but Di2.

    Again, you want it? You gotta pay for it.

    Di2's a premium product and Shimano wants to charge a premium for it. Happens in cars all the time. Last I checked (it has been a while...), you couldn't get a Toyota with radio controls on the steering wheel. That was a Lexus-only feature. With one exception - the top-end Toyota minivan. And Toyota isn't ever going to make a Lexus minivan....

    Shimano markets Di2 as special and exclusive. IMO they're going to keep it that way by limitiing it to their high-end (and high-margin) brands as long as they can. Once SRAM comes out with electronic shifting (if ever), then Shimano will dump Di2 into 105. Until then? Why?

  14. #39
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
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    I often wonder what slice of cyclists BF represents. And I am not saying that negatively, just that I think most of us are gear junkies. In the group that I ride with, I can't think of a single road bike with Di2. Several tri bikes, but no road bikes. This is out of a rotating group of about 70 avid cyclists, most with Red or DuraAce bikes. There are two guys that talk about it, but neither ride it. One guy likes it in theory because he has no mechanical skill, the other guy bought a Colnago with it, but he won't go to a shop to get it set up.

    Granted this is a tiny slice of people, but it just doesn't seem that common at this point. I really wonder if high BF interest represents high actual market interest. Tri folks love it, and have money, and that makes sense. I just wonder if the road side is that strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    Regarding the feedback issue, I don't think there's a particular attribute of mechanical groups that makes them better for feedback. It's true that right now there is a difference between Shimano's mechanical and Di2 groups and this respect.
    My experience test riding 6870 for ~40 minutes was that I wasn't always sure the RD had shifted. I couldn't hear the RD while moving and the buttons on the brake lever just don't seem to move enough to be noticeable when depressed. Mechanical groups in comparison have more of a feedback loop. You feel the cable indexing as you push the lever/button and hear the RD moving. An electronic group with a more distinctive/longer "throw" to the buttons might give the rider more feedback.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 03-31-14 at 04:38 PM.

  16. #41
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Man...I admit surprise that Shimano didn't take a page out of Campy's book by relegating their lower groupset to 10s.
    105 is going to be VERY popular...but that said, many just will pay a bit more for 6800 which is very fairly priced.
    I am not surprised that a lot of 6800 trickled down but to make 105 11s really surprises me. I likely won't ride it but no doubt it will be excellent and very popular.

  17. #42
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    I don't think so. I think Shimano is deliberatly keeping Di2 DA/Ultegra only so they can charge a premium. I also doubt there are yield and cost issues with making the electronic components. At this point in time it's probably just a matter cranking them out on the assembly line(s). The cost per unit would probably be a good bit lower if Shimano produced Di2 in quantities to make it part of the 105 line. But maybe selling Di2 as part of 105 cuts the selling cost so much that the profits on each sale are cut by 75 or 80%.

    If you want Di2, Shimano is going to make you pay for it.

    Historically, 105 has basically been the last generation Ultegra. This time, Shimano trickled-down everything but Di2.

    Again, you want it? You gotta pay for it.

    Di2's a premium product and Shimano wants to charge a premium for it. Happens in cars all the time. Last I checked (it has been a while...), you couldn't get a Toyota with radio controls on the steering wheel. That was a Lexus-only feature. With one exception - the top-end Toyota minivan. And Toyota isn't ever going to make a Lexus minivan....

    Shimano markets Di2 as special and exclusive. IMO they're going to keep it that way by limitiing it to their high-end (and high-margin) brands as long as they can. Once SRAM comes out with electronic shifting (if ever), then Shimano will dump Di2 into 105. Until then? Why?
    Transistors and microchips are cheap, of course. Servos that are compact, powerful and precise enough for the application are not. I don't know anything about manufacturing, but I still highly doubt that it's as easy as you think to make this stuff. It really isn't that easy, or everyone would do it. There are only three companies in the world who have demonstrated the institutional expertise to mass-manufacture complete 11-speed group sets. And that's only counting the mechanical ones. The bike component biz is very, very challenging.

    Incidentally, you're dead wrong on 105 being historically the previous generation of Ultegra, at least counting the last three major group set revisions. 5500, 5600 and now 5700 have all been the same technological generation as the preceding Dura-Ace group (respectively, 7800, 7900, 9000). So that's something to consider.

  18. #43
    Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk znomit's Avatar
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    Hmmm, cables just got 10x more expensive. Whats the payback time on electronic?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Man...I admit surprise that Shimano didn't take a page out of Campy's book by relegating their lower groupset to 10s.
    105 is going to be VERY popular...but that said, many just will pay a bit more for 6800 which is very fairly priced.
    I am not surprised that a lot of 6800 trickled down but to make 105 11s really surprises me. I likely won't ride it but no doubt it will be excellent and very popular.
    105 being very popular is probably the reason they want to bring it to 11 speed. it keeps 105 / ultegra / dura ace consistent allowing people / bike manufactures to mix / match components. It's their entry level race groupo.
    i.e... bike manufacture tries to sell you an ultegra "class" bike.. by just giving you ultegra derailleurs (and then skimping on the components you don't notice as much.. like cassette / chain / shifters).

    Tiagra / Sora... those budget groups... they probably won't get 11 speed for a while.

  20. #45
    MyBikeRunsonNukePower cmschmie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kv501 View Post
    What I hope having more 11 groups does is pressure KMC and Wipperman to make reusable 11 speed quick links.
    I spoke with the Wipperman rep at the NAHBS this year and he said that they would be delivering their 11 speed chains late this Spring.

  21. #46
    Senior Member kv501's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmschmie View Post
    I spoke with the Wipperman rep at the NAHBS this year and he said that they would be delivering their 11 speed chains late this Spring.
    But are their quick links going to be reusable? That was my main point. I always bought KMC chains because their 10s link was reusable and I like to take the chain off when I clean my bike. Their 11 speed links are not reusable according to them because of tighter tolerances. So in effect it's $5 (a card of 6 is roughly $30) every time you take your chain off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    Are you aware that this is a pedal bike forum?

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    For DI2 105... there might not be a big enough market for it yet. electronic shifting is still very niche ... and your budget rider choosing 105 probably doesn't want to spend the extra money going electric shifting. those extra dollars are probably better spent else where. (Ultegra, better wheels, nicer frame...)

    I'm sure it'll trickle down eventually. But i can see disc brakes becoming more mainstream before electronic shifting does.

    That's my 2cents.

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    Meh, so the only big changes I see is that octopus crank and 11spd. If the FD is compatible with the 10, I'll probably buy one though, the newer spring and longer arm is tempting.

    I won't debate whether electric shifter shifts better since I can't debate it. But just want to say, I haven't had any issues with shifting on 5700 or my older 2300. Both had great, fast, crisp shifting and when tuned, neither had any skipping or missed shifting issues.
    Last edited by zymphad; 03-31-14 at 06:18 PM.

  24. #49
    Senior Member Jiggle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post

    Shimano markets Di2 as special and exclusive. IMO they're going to keep it that way by limitiing it to their high-end (and high-margin) brands as long as they can. Once SRAM comes out with electronic shifting (if ever), then Shimano will dump Di2 into 105. Until then? Why?
    I agree. Shimanolo was first to the good patents on this tech and they're going to make sure they milk it for all it's worth. I would. Cha ching, baller.

    I can't see how DI2 is any more expensive to produce than mechanical. Electric motors? Gear boxes? wires? PCBs? Child's play. Slap it together and use software to calibrate it. When it gets a lower retail price than mechanical, I'm switching. Yes, even a Luddite like Jigglebabble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
    I agree. Shimanolo was first to the good patents on this tech and they're going to make sure they milk it for all it's worth. I would. Cha ching, baller.

    I can't see how DI2 is any more expensive to produce than mechanical. Electric motors? Gear boxes? wires? PCBs? Child's play. Slap it together and use software to calibrate it. When it gets a lower retail price than mechanical, I'm switching. Yes, even a Luddite like Jigglebabble.
    I think it will be another 3-5 years before we see Di2 in an affordable range. At least to me $1500 is not affordable considering the mechanical 105 shifts perfectly every time already. Maybe longer. Wouldn't surprise me if the 105 5900 remain mechanical.

    I'm just waiting to talk to someone in person who has owned Di2 for a few years riding in snow and crappy weather all year round before considering it. Someone who doesn't treat his Di2 as only fair weather gear. Haven't met anyone like that yet.

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