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  1. #51
    Senior Member Jiggle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    Meh, so the only big changes I see is that octopus crank and 11spd. If the FD is compatible with the 10, I'll probably buy one though, the newer spring and longer arm is tempting.

    I won't debate whether electric shifter shifts better since I can't debate it. But just want to say, I haven't had any issues with shifting on 5700 or my older 2300. Both had great, fast, crisp shifting and when tuned, neither had any skipping or missed shifting issues.
    Every gruppo before 9000 and 6800 has crappy front shifting. You may not think so having only used 5700 (I didn't), but after the little gnome gently switches chainrings for you on a 6800 group, you'll realize it.

    The important changes I see on this 105 are: Vastly better front shifting and better hood shape. It should also be cheaper.

    The FD alone won't help you with the 5700 front shifter. I investigated this with my 5700 and 6800 groups because I had the same idea you have.

    The 11 speed front shifter moves the FD along two steps: The push releases the FD just enough to nudge the chain to the smaller ring. This allows the FD cage to act as a chainkeeper during the shift action. Releasing the button lets the FD move inward a little more for chain clearance. The 5700 lever gives up the cable pull all in one click so what does it matter what FD you are using.

    Shifting to the larger ring works the same as the 5700 except the trim button is a reverse trim.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Jiggle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    I think it will be another 3-5 years before we see Di2 in an affordable range. At least to me $1500 is not affordable considering the mechanical 105 shifts perfectly every time already. Maybe longer. Wouldn't surprise me if the 105 5900 remain mechanical.

    I'm just waiting to talk to someone in person who has owned Di2 for a few years riding in snow and crappy weather all year round before considering it. Someone who doesn't treat his Di2 as only fair weather gear. Haven't met anyone like that yet.
    I predict that Di2 will do well in the bad weather. Electric motors have a huge amount of torque - way more than a derailleur spring can give, and there is no cable friction or shifter wear to deal with. It really is an awesome idea for bikes.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    Transistors and microchips are cheap, of course. Servos that are compact, powerful and precise enough for the application are not. I don't know anything about manufacturing, but I still highly doubt that it's as easy as you think to make this stuff. It really isn't that easy, or everyone would do it. There are only three companies in the world who have demonstrated the institutional expertise to mass-manufacture complete 11-speed group sets. And that's only counting the mechanical ones. The bike component biz is very, very challenging.
    True, but once the engineering is solved, it's solved. There are a lot more intricate and complex items built in much higher quantities than bicycle groupsets.

    Cost though?

    Yeah, maybe.

    Though that would be another reason for Shimano to keep Di2 high-end only. If it's expensive to make, it really can't be sold as part of the 105 line. It that's true, might as well let it keep the higher-end labels.

    Incidentally, you're dead wrong on 105 being historically the previous generation of Ultegra, at least counting the last three major group set revisions. 5500, 5600 and now 5700 have all been the same technological generation as the preceding Dura-Ace group (respectively, 7800, 7900, 9000). So that's something to consider.
    Well, I could quibble in that 6700 preceded 5700, 6800 preceded 5800, etc.

    Again, though, I'd say that tends to support my claim that Shimano is deliberately keeping Di2 in the Ultegra/DA groups only. Because they did trickle it down to Ultegra. I'd say that makes the non-trickle-down to 105 more pointed.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    I think it will be another 3-5 years before we see Di2 in an affordable range. At least to me $1500 is not affordable considering the mechanical 105 shifts perfectly every time already. Maybe longer. Wouldn't surprise me if the 105 5900 remain mechanical.

    I'm just waiting to talk to someone in person who has owned Di2 for a few years riding in snow and crappy weather all year round before considering it. Someone who doesn't treat his Di2 as only fair weather gear. Haven't met anyone like that yet.
    If grolby is right about the marginal manufacturing costs per unit being pretty high - and he very well may be - it's going to be a lot longer before we see electronic shifting for the masses.

    Even if he's wrong, I doubt we'd see it anyway until someone other than Shimano grabs a large market share with their electronic shifting groupsets.

  5. #55
    Beer >> Sanity bikerjp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    This is basically an argument about purity, and it's an emotional argument, not a factual one.
    Of course it's about purity. What's wrong with that. And tons of the discussions here are about emotion. Anything people tend to care a lot about becomes emotional. I don't doubt that electronic shifting will become more the norm eventually, but as I said there will always be people who want the more pure experience. Look at CV bikes and the people oohing and awing over a quill stem.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
    The important changes I see on this 105 are: Vastly better front shifting and better hood shape. It should also be cheaper.
    I think front shifting is overrated myself but I didn't feel much difference between 5700/6700 and 6800 front shifting on test rides. I actually prefer the wider hoods on 5700/6700 to 6800 but the difference is pretty small. The front shifting on di2 is pretty cool because of how quickly and effortlessly it happens but I don't do enough front shifting to run out and spend $1500 just for that.

  7. #57
    Redefining Lazy Slackerprince's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jiggle;16629696]Every gruppo before 9000 and 6800 has crappy front shifting.

    Shimano is a Group-san, per, The Rules.


    S.
    Last edited by Slackerprince; 03-31-14 at 08:45 PM.
    Shut up, everything

  8. #58
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjp View Post
    Of course it's about purity. What's wrong with that. And tons of the discussions here are about emotion. Anything people tend to care a lot about becomes emotional. I don't doubt that electronic shifting will become more the norm eventually, but as I said there will always be people who want the more pure experience. Look at CV bikes and the people oohing and awing over a quill stem.
    I don't have a problem with going with something for emotional reasons, I'm saying that the purity argument is without merit. I have no problem with emotion. It's justifying that emotion by trying to argue for some spiritual or moral high ground that irks me. It's perfectly reasonable to say "mechanical shifting makes ME feel more connected to the experience of riding," if that isn't extrapolated into some kind of universal truth.

    achoo - whoever is right, it's an interesting question, for sure. SRAM is working on an electronic group for sure, it'll be interesting to see what happens when that sees the light of day.

    Anyway, sorry for dragging the discussion off into a debate over the merits of electronic shifting, I'll stop. So, that new 105 group. Looks nice.

  9. #59
    Beer >> Sanity bikerjp's Avatar
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    Not trying to drag this out either as we are more or less on the same page. It was others I was initially replying to. However, I think there is merit if it means something to the rider. I don't think I ever said or implied there was some moral high ground to mechanical shifting - only that for some it will retain value and the "everything will be electronic argument" (implied in comments like shimano should stop worrying about mechanical) is the one lacking merit. I, for one, have no interest in electronic and hope everyone keeps improving both lines. Down the road? Who knows.
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  10. #60
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    i have zero interest in going electric!! as soon as this is available im purchasing it!!

  11. #61
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    I've been watching GCN's review of bike setups of the best pros.

    A lot of them use mechanical, not Di2. Fabian Cancellara uses mechanical on his Domane. Wiggins uses mechanical on his Pinarello time trial bike. And other members on Sky, mechanic claims use both mechanic on their competition and training bikes because they prefer the feel on mechanical shifting, not because of cost. Team Tinkoff's Tarmacs also use mechanical.

    And you can't forget that any pro who uses SRAM is mechanical.

    Just throwing it out there, it's fun to see what setup some pro riders are using. Some use older hardware, like I saw one team bike using a 7900 Dura-Ace with Powermeter on his bike even though the rest are 9000 Di2 components.

    Electronic likely isn't THE future. It's just another option, lots of others will use mechanical.

    Also for Campagnolo at least, the EPS is heavier than the mechanical.

    Oh and for Wiggins in 2013, he threw a bike away mid-race because his Di2 failed. So electronic isn't without faults, however unlikely it may happen!
    Last edited by zymphad; 04-02-14 at 07:13 AM.

  12. #62
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
    I can't see how DI2 is any more expensive to produce than mechanical. Electric motors? Gear boxes? wires? PCBs? Child's play. Slap it together and use software to calibrate it. When it gets a lower retail price than mechanical, I'm switching. Yes, even a Luddite like Jigglebabble.
    Would that be the technical term?

    So, because you can't see it means it musn't be difficult? I look forward to your 2015MY product launch. Smilie face.



    There are a lot of costs and challenges involved in the design, testing, tooling and manufacturing of any product that are hidden from the end user. That is for a single product. For a groupset this is multiplied several times. It is a little harder than you imagine.
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  13. #63
    Senior Member Jiggle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Would that be the technical term?
    Yes. As long as the individual components are machined to spec.

  14. #64
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Would that be the technical term?

    So, because you can't see it means it musn't be difficult? I look forward to your 2015MY product launch. Smilie face.



    There are a lot of costs and challenges involved in the design, testing, tooling and manufacturing of any product that are hidden from the end user. That is for a single product. For a groupset this is multiplied several times. It is a little harder than you imagine.
    I'm thinking I should stop banging my head against the wall of trying to get people to understand that designing and mass-manufacturing a quality cycling component group set is really, really hard to do. And that Shimano/SRAM/Campagnolo have reasons for the decisions they make about product releases and pricing beyond just cynically bilking us all for cash whilst stroking their pointy beards in smoke-filled back rooms. After all, if people believe that, they're welcome to develop and produce their own group set and sell it for a fair price. But it just gets me grouchy and mean to try and fight it, and I don't really like it when I get mean. Not a good look on me.

  15. #65
    Member SoCAlAD8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricanfred View Post
    I know quite a few cyclists that have no desire to go electronic.

    For sure....
    Much like I like to row my own in my car, I have no desire to go electronic on my bike. A smoother system would be welcomed, and much appreciated, but I'll do the shifting.

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