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Thread: Power Meter

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    With new G3 hubs going for $700 I wouldn't bother with the older wireless Powertaps at this point. There's a good chance you'll have to send it in for a repair in the near future which costs $350 plus shipping (they upgrade it to G3 internals.) From what I've read the older SL+ tends to leak over time and let moisture in.
    I've had a G3/Zipp 101 wheel set for over a year now. It's had to find anything to complain about. There are a lot of new power meters on the market now and it has caused the prices to go down. I still prefer the wheel based systems -- Of course I don't have multiple wheel sets.

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    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    That's the Stages. For this one ride (a climb), with this one rider (Ray), the PT, Quarq, and Vector all were pretty close while the Stages was farther off. This is a maximal power curve over the average number of seconds on the x-axis, and these were *not* sprints so much as accelerations. For this ride the lines converge at the right side of the plot because you're averaging over a longer period of time so short fluctuations get averaged out. A different rider, on a different type of ride, could have a different pattern of divergence. We know that L/R balance (bilateral asymmetry) varies across individuals, by cadence, by fatigue state, and by power; that is, it's not consistent. That is, on a different ride Ray's balance may have been different -- so if you're doing tests, you'd want to be especially careful with the Stages to do the tests on the same road in possibly the same gear combos each time. OTOH, if all you do is record your TSS, the Stages is probably fine.

    It's plots like this that make me think that if you need to do QA analysis, or sprint training, or drag estimation, or if you have been using a different PM for a while for structured training, the Stages probably isn't the right PM for you. However, if all you want to do is ride it's probably okay. I think the Stages can be a good gateway drug before moving on to the hard stuff.
    Well explained...thanks.

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    I keep thinking that over the winter I'll save up and get one, but it's confusing what my options are for my Ultegra 6700 bike. I like my wheels, so PowerTap is out and I'm not sold on Stages so I'm trying to figure out what else will fit. It seems complicated to me.

    I also would be curious to find out how accurate the power meters on the spin bikes at my gym are. It might help me figure out if spin class is helping or not.

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    a shoe based system might be popular, in that most people use the same shoes, regardless of wheelset, or crank. both shoes of course. maybe in the cleats or shoe soles.

    and if shimano comes out with one i'm expecting royalties...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
    a shoe based system might be popular, in that most people use the same shoes, regardless of wheelset, or crank. both shoes of course. maybe in the cleats or shoe soles.

    and if shimano comes out with one i'm expecting royalties...
    1st Hands-On Ride with Brim Brothers Zone Cleat Based Power Meter | DC Rainmaker

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsberrios1 View Post
    I'll just say this quick thingy. Without a power meter you are not a real cyclist. And I don't mean Stages, Pioneer, whatever... I mean SRM, Quarq and maybeeeee... power tap. In that order specifically. Good luck!
    Anyone who rides a ubiquitous Specialized cannot possibly be a realy cyclist thingy. Just sayin kinda quickly

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    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JakiChan View Post
    I keep thinking that over the winter I'll save up and get one, but it's confusing what my options are for my Ultegra 6700 bike. I like my wheels, so PowerTap is out and I'm not sold on Stages so I'm trying to figure out what else will fit. It seems complicated to me.

    I also would be curious to find out how accurate the power meters on the spin bikes at my gym are. It might help me figure out if spin class is helping or not.
    In my experience spin bike PMs are precise and consistent but not very accurate. They are fine to use to meter efforts and intervals as long as you don't try to equate the numbers to bicycle PMs like a PT or Quarq. Spin bike numbers will typically be much higher.

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    an exhaustive review!

    in the post, i was being a little silly, but apparently truth is at least EQUALLY as strange as fiction...

    oh well, has anybody invented an LED light bulb yet? i've got some ideas.

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    That Brim Brothers review is 2 1/2 years old and they still haven't shipped. I think they're saying that they'll ship later this year but until then it's just vaporware.

  11. #86
    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
    So the question is can you get a Stages + PowerTap for less than the cost of a Garmin Vector (probably)?
    Funny, I was entertaining the same idea. I'm coming off of a left leg injury, so bilateral power measurement matters to me. I'm not sold on Vector's durability as far as the pods go. I really want the Verve power meter and it's supposed to come out soon, but who knows?

    Anyway, the different readings between the 2 PMs would make it impossible to determine whether your legs were imbalanced unless the imbalance was very large.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    Again, why do you care about individual left/right power as opposed to total?
    I don't. But some seem to think that using total power is "better" than just taking left power and doubling it. I was just pointing out that total power is really not any better than taking your left side power and doubling it. Total power doesn't tell you your left/right splits either.

    Both total power and left power doubled give you a consistent number that can be used for training purposes. Since neither one gives left/right splits, I don't see how anyone can claim one is better than the other.

    If you want true left/right power splits you need something that actually measure it. AFAIK that's just Garmin Vector at the moment. Power2Max claims to estimate it, and I have a teammate who uses one and it does give different left/right numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    I don't. But some seem to think that using total power is "better" than just taking left power and doubling it. I was just pointing out that total power is really not any better than taking your left side power and doubling it. Total power doesn't tell you your left/right splits either.
    This is the mistake you keep making. Total power is better than taking left-side power and doubling. That's because left-side power is not always a consistent fraction of total power. We don't care about the load on each leg; we care about the total load on the body. Doubling left-side does not give us that. Independent left/ right values do not give us anything demonstrably better than that. Having total power is an advantage. Having left/ right split is not.
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    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    If you want true left/right power splits you need something that actually measure it. AFAIK that's just Garmin Vector at the moment. Power2Max claims to estimate it, and I have a teammate who uses one and it does give different left/right numbers.
    Pioneer measures both sides. So does the Rotor 3D+.

    Those are the ones you could buy today (can't buy Pioneer online as far as I know). More are on the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    This is the mistake you keep making.
    What mistake? That total power is no better than just left power doubled? You calling it a mistake doesn't make it so. I'd say you're under the obligation to tell us why total power with no idea of the underlying left/right balance is better.

    Total power is better than taking left-side power and doubling.
    Why? Total power doesn't measure any left/right split so you don't know if one's there or not.

    That's because left-side power is not always a consistent fraction of total power.
    You can't know that unless you measure left/right power. And once you measure left/right power, you're measuring left/right power and total power vs. left power doubled is a moot point.

    We don't care about the load on each leg; we care about the total load on the body.
    And without measuring left/right power, you don't know that doubling left power isn't accurate enough. Sure, it varies. Some. But so does your body's ability to generate total power - that varies too. A LOT more than left/right power differences.

    Doubling left-side does not give us that.
    Why? Because you claim in the absence of measurements that left/right power balance varies?

    You ain't measuring it. You can't know that.

    Independent left/ right values do not give us anything demonstrably better than that. Having total power is an advantage. Having left/ right split is not.
    Total power is no more useful a training tool than doubling left power. Even if there are variations in power balance, they're going to be smaller than the variations in your body's ability to generate total power - when you're fatigued or when you blow up both legs tend to be fatigued or O2 starved. When you have a good day, it's not limited to your left quad.

    Doubled-left power data is every bit as useful data as total power. There's noise in both data sets. The fact is that the random noise introduced into the data sets from differences in the way left/right power is measured and summed into total power is unknown and indiscernible.

    Yeah, there's noise in the data that's different. It may not even be random. But since you don't know what it is, and it doesn't impact the consistency of the output data, it's totally irrelevant.

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    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    I have the Vectors and fwiw, care about my l/r numbers. Due to an ankle surgery my left foot put out 8-10% less power than the right. Since I'm left dominant it should be the other way around. So when I look at my power numbers, a closer l/r ratio is important. For the average rider the ratios may not be important, but for injury recovery its a great marker.

    My 2 cents, for the cost, Stages is a great product. However I'd probably go with a p/t for a tad bit more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DXchulo View Post
    Pioneer measures both sides. So does the Rotor 3D+.

    Those are the ones you could buy today (can't buy Pioneer online as far as I know). More are on the way.
    Is the Rotor 3D+ the same as the Power2Max? It sure seems to have a similar feature set, and Power2Max units all seem to be on Rotor cranks. Power2Max claims they estimate left/right balance:

    power2max Features - power2max North America

    Your power2max power meter estimates the contribution of your left and right leg as your ride. This offers useful additional information for your training.
    The Pioneer units look interesting, but I do wonder about the accuracy of strain gauges zip-tied to crank arms. There's not much consistency from the manufacturer in THAT process... And the "special training" DCRainMaker mentions to install, using a special weight to calibrate it? Why would I want to pay $1500-$1800 for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    I have the Vectors and fwiw, care about my l/r numbers. Due to an ankle surgery my left foot put out 8-10% less power than the right. Since I'm left dominant it should be the other way around. So when I look at my power numbers, a closer l/r ratio is important. For the average rider the ratios may not be important, but for injury recovery its a great marker.

    My 2 cents, for the cost, Stages is a great product. However I'd probably go with a p/t for a tad bit more.
    Yeah, but think about this:

    Even in your situation, with a known (injury caused?) power imbalance - what specifically would a PowerTap tell you about your left/right power balance that a Stages unit wouldn't?

    Further, how would "limiting" yourself to a Stages unit instead of a PowerTap impact your training? I don't see how it would, even in your situation.

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    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Is the Rotor 3D+ the same as the Power2Max? It sure seems to have a similar feature set, and Power2Max units all seem to be on Rotor cranks. Power2Max claims they estimate left/right balance:

    power2max Features - power2max North America



    The Pioneer units look interesting, but I do wonder about the accuracy of strain gauges zip-tied to crank arms. There's not much consistency from the manufacturer in THAT process... And the "special training" DCRainMaker mentions to install, using a special weight to calibrate it? Why would I want to pay $1500-$1800 for that?
    No, it's not the same. The Rotor 3D+ PM actually measures both sides. Rotor 3D+ Power Meter 30mm Crank 110BCD

    As for Pioneer, those issues you mentioned are on the old version. There are no zip ties on the new version and I think they made installation a little bit easier. Pioneer Electronics launches new, improved power meter - VeloNews.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    What mistake? That total power is no better than just left power doubled? You calling it a mistake doesn't make it so. I'd say you're under the obligation to tell us why total power with no idea of the underlying left/right balance is better.
    Well, for one thing, you can do pretty precise drag estimation with total power but we haven't been able to get consistent results with drag estimation using power meters that double one-side power. There are other reasons but that's a pretty clear one since many riders who've been doing structured training for a few years have plateau'd on their training gains and if they want to get faster they have to pay more attention to drag reduction.

    As for L/R balance and injury, I had a little sciatica problem a few years ago that resulted in a huge bilateral imbalance. My right foot flopped, I could only walk upstairs by taking a step with my left then dragging my right up, I couldn't push down with any force on the downstroke on that side, etc. -- and I had a PowerTap. Over the course of six months or maybe longer I just kept riding and eventually my (total) power crept back up to my previous level. I have no idea what my exact L/R balance was before or what it is now but I know that my total power is back up to pre-injury level. So, although I disagree with you that total power isn't more useful than doubling one-sided power, I'll agree with you that knowing L/R balance isn't more useful than not knowing it.

    [Edit] Which is not to say that I don't think there's a place for the Stages. I think it can be a good gateway drug.
    Last edited by RChung; 04-25-14 at 10:16 AM.

  21. #96
    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Yeah, but think about this:

    Even in your situation, with a known (injury caused?) power imbalance - what specifically would a PowerTap tell you about your left/right power balance that a Stages unit wouldn't?

    Further, how would "limiting" yourself to a Stages unit instead of a PowerTap impact your training? I don't see how it would, even in your situation.
    You just put a lot of words in his mouth. He never said PowerTap is better than Stages when it comes to left/right balance.

    He didn't even say that a PowerTap is superior to Stages, just that he'd go for the PowerTap (if not for the surgery). There's a lot of personal preference involved when it comes to where you want your power meter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DXchulo View Post
    You just put a lot of words in his mouth. He never said PowerTap is better than Stages when it comes to left/right balance.

    He didn't even say that a PowerTap is superior to Stages, just that he'd go for the PowerTap (if not for the surgery). There's a lot of personal preference involved when it comes to where you want your power meter.
    I put no words in his mouth.

    He posted he'd get a PowerTap over a Stages unit and I asked him what specifically would be better about the data he'd get from a PowerTap. N.B. he actually answered that.

  23. #98
    Upgrading my engine DXchulo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    I put no words in his mouth.

    He posted he'd get a PowerTap over a Stages unit and I asked him what specifically would be better about the data he'd get from a PowerTap. N.B. he actually answered that.
    You should probably read that post again.

    "My 2 cents, for the cost, Stages is a great product. However I'd probably go with a p/t for a tad bit more."

    That's all he said. Where does he say that the PowerTap gives better data, especially concerning L/R balance?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RChung View Post
    Well, for one thing, you can do pretty precise drag estimation with total power but we haven't been able to get consistent results with drag estimation using power meters that double one-side power. There are other reasons but that's a pretty clear one since many riders who've been doing structured training for a few years have plateau'd on their training gains and if they want to get faster they have to pay more attention to drag reduction.
    Drag reduction is going to help in going faster no matter how you measure power. Using total power does make the estimation of drag coefficients more accurate, but unless you're in a wind tunnel the variation in measuring outside is going to introduce huge errors in the results anyway.

    And even if you assume some skew in power numbers from using left power doubled instead of total power such that the resulting numbers are less accurate, the relative drag test results are going to be the same - lower drag positions will still have lower estimated drag coefficients. There will just be another unknown fudge factor scaled into the results. As long as the power results are consistent, you'll get consistent results from drag estimation.

    As for L/R balance and injury, I had a little sciatica problem a few years ago that resulted in a huge bilateral imbalance. My right foot flopped, I could only walk upstairs by taking a step with my left then dragging my right up, I couldn't push down with any force on the downstroke on that side, etc. -- and I had a PowerTap. Over the course of six months or maybe longer I just kept riding and eventually my (total) power crept back up to my previous level. I have no idea what my exact L/R balance was before or what it is now but I know that my total power is back up to pre-injury level. So, although I disagree with you that total power isn't more useful than doubling one-sided power, I'll agree with you that knowing L/R balance isn't more useful than not knowing it.

    [Edit] Which is not to say that I don't think there's a place for the Stages. I think it can be a good gateway drug.
    No, actually I think that knowing the L/R balance can be useful. But if you don't know what it is, I'm saying there's absolutely no practical difference in using total power vs. left power doubled for training.
    Last edited by achoo; 04-25-14 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DXchulo View Post
    You should probably read that post again.

    "My 2 cents, for the cost, Stages is a great product. However I'd probably go with a p/t for a tad bit more."

    That's all he said. Where does he say that the PowerTap gives better data, especially concerning L/R balance?
    If it doesn't give better data, assuming all else is equal why would anyone pay more for it?

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