RJM

Buying a frame and building it up the way you want is always the best bet for me. It gets me exactly the components and build I want with the frame I want. Most off the shelf bikes have a different component configuration than I prefer...

rpenmanparker 

That's totally valid. I do exactly the same thing.

lkngro

For those of us who are not riding bikes for a living (i.e. racing), riding a bike is like riding a piece of functional jewelry. A bike is an extraordinarily beautiful, simple machine, but of course some people are going to be riding around on a bike that looks like Xzibit took it away for a couple days. A steel frame is a classic and will always be loved by some people.

I love to ride. Period. I don't care how fast I go, just that I'm out there doing it. That's why I love steel bikes. You can just go out and not care about how fast or far you went and it treats you like an old friend.

Banzai

I love a beautiful custom frame. That being said, 90% of fit issues can be narrowed down to 2 possible frame sizes, and a carefully selected stem and seatpost. Get custom if you love it, but an equally good fit can nearly always be achieved as outlined above. It's simply a geometry problem with a variable that happens to also have some adaptability; namely, the cyclist.

Walter

I ride a Litespeed Ti as my #1 but a 853 LeMond and a 1970s 531 frame from Ireland get into the rotation and I enjoy them immensely.

JohnJ80

And where exactly is the "perfection" of standard frames? How many times do we see people buying bikes because the one they have turns out to not meet their needs or fit properly?

Perfection is going to be hard to achieve but if you know what you want, if you understand bike geometry and fit, you can get close to it (much closer) than with a standard frame. I think I can speak with some authority on that after having many bikes over decades that have been nothing but compromises despite much money spent on components trying to tweak the fit.

"Myth" means that it doesn't exist in reality. That's simply not true. The most excellent bike I've ever ridden is the custom frame that am now on. It accommodates my injury issues, it meets my desire for compliance, comfort and riding position. And if it's so mythical, amazing how my average speed over many many miles and on the same routes has increased. If that's a myth then it works for me.

I do agree that it's important to be able to quantify what you want and communication is critical with the frame builder. I also agree that that is no small obstacle to overcome. But it is also quite possible if one is careful.

Really a sad position to take. I suppose if you are unable to do this, then I understand your frustration but that doesn't mean that it is impossible or even quite possible. There are others who are quite capable of "understanding their wants" and being able to "communicate it accurately." To think that is not possible is what is simply absurd.

Bandera

Bicycle are intensely personal machines since we provide their motive power ourselves, some of us wish to have a unique frameset built by a craftsman as opposed to a mass produced off the rack model.
Our choice, no need to get one's undergarments in a wad over other folk spending their time and money as they choose.

Experienced cyclists with an understating of Project Management principles, one of which is clear concise communication skills, have no trouble in presenting the Scope, Requirements, Budget and Timeline to a reputable builder such as Mercian combining proven craftsmanship in frame building and finishing with a well controlled process.

A well designed and controlled process produces a product that meets quality standards whether a faucet or a frameset. This is not a recent revelation, read Deming.

Upper and lower control limits in quality control and assurance are how, as in any well controlled process.

For example customer A ordered a 56cm Audax model in 853 tubing with vertical dropouts, clearance for 28mm w/ mudguards, several braze-on options and finished in red enamel with a white barber pole to be delivered by Dec1, 2015 for $2,000.

If a 62cm King in 725 with horizontal dropouts, no eyelets or braze-ons finished in black pearl with purple bands was manufactured for customer A for delivery in June 2016 for $3,000 a variety of out-control-limits for Scope, Requirments, Budget and Timeline would be triggered in QA. Caveat Emptor: choose a reliable builder with excellent process control.

Internal QA/QC for brazing, alignment, machining and finishing are crucial as well: Caveat Emptor: choose a reliable builder with excellent internal manufacturing process control.

Bleating endlessly on about absurd delusional customers having custom frames built for them flies in face of decades of satisfied cyclists putting miles on bespoke machines that suit them.
Get over it.

-Bandera

rpenmanparker 

You just don't understand what I have written over and over again. First I never said a custom frame wasn't desirable for many of the reasons you enumerated. What I said was you can't expect a custom builder to be able to translate your desires for ride characteristics into a frame that satisfies you nearly as well as TESTING and CHOOSING a frame from available stock offerings would. The assumption here is that stock frames will fit you well and please you aesthetically. If not, you are surely a candidate for custom. Barring that, when you choose from stock, you don't have to rely on anyone's skill except your own ability to recognize what you want when you feel it.

Of course a builder can be expected to use the right tubing, build the right size as agreed between you, deliver on time, etc. but this conversation isn't about that. It is about the builder, quality systems or not, being able to make raw material into what you expect from a bike in the way it rides. When DeRosa was building all of Eddy Merckx's bikes, do you think the first one was perfect, or as satisfactory as continual improvement made the later ones. I don't. How many tries will it take for your builder to get it just right for you? Too bad he only gets one chance.

CafeVelo

Too bad the majority of stock frames have an obvious place to improve, since they aren't made to fit the rider specifically. How hard is it for a competent builder to understand the statement: "I want something that rides like this with extra head tube so I have no spacers." Or, I want something that fits like this with less twitchy handling." A competent builder would probably also ask why you like whatever you like, and do the appropriate things to create that condition on the bike. It is their job, just like the apparently infallible mass market factories, to know such things. I wouldn't hire a builder who can't translate what I want based on the things I would change about what I have into a new frame. That's the whole purpose of custom. The way you describe builders you'd think they know nothing about their material and craft. I can't find a concievable reason that a builder is handicapped simply because they don't work for Giant or Merida, and you won't convince me otherwise. The big manufacturers don't get more than one chance to impress a buyer either, and you sure as hell can't ask them to tweak something. If you don't like how your custom frame rides then it's probably your fault.

rpenmanparker 

Nonesense! Giant and Merida don't build frames and hope they came out as planned. They build and test and keep doing it over and over again until they get it right. What custom builder does that?

Enjoy your custom frames guys. I surely like mine. It was a treat for myself, and it looks and fits exactly how I want it to. And it was built to a ride standard just as the builder and I agreed upon. I just know it isn't as good a ride as what I have picked off the rack. How could it be? I was able to test ride the stock bikes to my heart's content. The custom bike is what it is.

D1andonlyDman

I own 5 road bikes. One carbon, three steel, one aluminum. The bike I enjoy riding the most is the Paramount PDG Series 7 that I just built up with a modern 9x3 drivetrain.

Bandera

Making an assertion that is fundamentally flawed over and over again does not correct it, or convince anyone more than it's first iteration did.

I prefer lugged steel frames.
The current crop of mass produced frames are not steel.
The current mass produced steel frames do not meet my requirements for a variety of reasons.
I went as far as building a Test Mule with a mass produced frameset to test if a custom was necessary. It is.



My Test isn't a twirl around the parking lot but seasons of real world use to refine Requirements for Phase II of the project: a Custom frameset.

A custom shop like Mercian has survived since 1947 by precisely translating customer's Scope, Requirements, Budget and Timeline to produce a frameset that meets those criteria and satisfies their customers in craftsmanship, performance, aesthetics and pride of ownership. It's how they make a living, they have the process down but one must participate in a rational manner.

I've put quite enough miles/decades on steel standard tubed lugged frame bikes built in a variety of configurations with many flavors of tube type to have more than a passing familiarity with the subtleties of their design. Mercian builds only that frame type, I speak the language as well as fluent PM.

I also fully understand my Scope, Requirements, Budget, Timeline and Color Choice and have no problem in clearly communicating those specifications to a builder of my choice.
Mercian, like my tailor, still has my info on file from previous projects. I was well satisfied with their product in the past and am return business.
I have no doubt that we will bring this project in On Spec, At Budget and On Time.

And why do you even care about what others choose to do with their $,$$$ and time?
I suspect a failed custom frame build project festering with unresolved angst, resentment and hostility manifesting as anti-custom evangelism and equal opportunity disrespect.
This can lead to Absurd, if not Delusional posting.....


-Bandera

Tickstart

Until steel gets cheaper, Carbon will likely be the go-to alternative, a steel frame is always the best ofc!

Bandera

"it was not until 1973 that their relationship was formalized and De Rosa became the official frame builder and mechanic for the Molteni team which he (Merckx) captained. Merckx and his teammates won nearly all the major European races including the Tour de France, the Giro d'Italia, Milan – San Remo and the World Championship.

De Rosa (bicycles) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You don't?
Is there a higher standard that you require that is not both absurd and delusional?

It seems that Signor DeRosa got it about right.

-Bandera

mister

More and more, I'm looking at a custom steel frame for my next build. Probably a Stinner or something along those lines.

chaadster

God, the schadenfreude I have right is unhealthily intense.

rpenmanparker 

So you are saying you think the first bike DeRosa built for Eddy was completely satisfactory. Eddy didn't say how anything could be improved? Ugo knew exactly what to do, and it was exactly right when finished? And you think I am delusional? Senor DeRosa did get it about right...bye and bye. Your unwillingness to accept this truth is bewildering.

rpenmanparker 

You suspect wrong. My custom builder was also a friend for many years. I still maintain an occasional correspondence with his widow, whom I have a great affection for. He never disappointed me. But then I had very modest expectations regarding the perfection of the ride characteristics of a custom steel frame as I have expressed above.

We can never come to a resolution of our differences, because we are not debating the same topic. Your attachment to custom steel frames as the be all and end all of bicycling is so strong that you cannot even consider the validity of what I am saying. So be it.

Live long and prosper.

Bandera

Where did you get "be all and end all" from I prefer lugged steel frames?
A simple statement of fact, although I do own and ride AL and CF as well.

I simply disagree with all of your unfounded assertions regarding acquiring a custom steel frameset, So be it indeed.

RJM

It's true....lugged steel is the be all and end all of bikes.

redfooj

noone contests whether you got the best possible frame for yourself. or that you *think* you got the best possible frame for yourself.

custom *can* produce the optimal outcome - that is its raison d'etre. it's just that many times it doesnt. as explained, thats due to a long chain linking the intended product to the actual product.

in the same vein as arguing that mercian's infallible at making every customer's dream bicycle, bianchi has been in operation for twice as long by perfecting a recipe that works for many more bicyclists...without needing to optimize for any one individual. ((do i believe either statements? of course not....))...... and as a side note, cycling history contains superior manufacturers building both custom and production bikes....

Bandera

Infallible? No, a well proven and controlled manufacturing process. Fallibility is why QC/QA are integral in the process.

As always, suit yourself.

-Bandera

Sangetsu

My steel bike is a Gios Compact Pro of 1998 vintage. It is fitted with the circa 2000 carbon fibre Record 9 speed kit. The Compact Pro is still produced today, and is unchanged from it's original design. Campagnolo has added a couple more gears to their Record kit, but the lack of steep hills or descent in my area make more gears superfluous.

I will never sell the Gios, it was issued to me by by old team, and it helped get me on the podium in my first serious race. But my next road bike is in the works, it is a Litespeed Ultimate, and I am acquiring the parts to put it together. As with my previous road bikes, nothing made in Asia will be used. My folding bike is Dura Ace/XTR, but I don't like the funky cable routing or bizarre chainset designs of the current Shimano components. I am not sure if the titanium frame will "sing" in the same way that my steel bikes have, but I now live near the seaside, and the salt air is tough on steel and aluminium. I have zero interest in carbon fibre frames.

redfooj

whether mercian have consistency in build and quality is straying from the point of the argument: that going custom can ensure a bike as good as one off the rack i.e. custom is a necessity.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post17810372

-custom is appropriate if you enjoy the notion of having something made bespoke
-custom is appropriate if you are the 5% with extreme body proportions
-custom is appropriate if you know with high specificity what you want, and are able to find a builder capable in its execution (be it mercian or otherwise)

but custom is not is the only way, or even *a* way of guaranteeing the best fit and performance. those who buy into it strictly for this reason are misled

Bandera

First "infallible", now "a necessity"?

Neither of those concepts have been proposed in anything that I've written.
Start a clean post to propose your points, inserting extraneous notions of yours as if they were mine is simply wrong.

If you wish to have a conversation on the topic at hand quote accurately and don't try to put your concepts into another's mouth.
If the subject gives you hissy-fits: relax it's just the inter-web.

-Bandera