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  1. #26
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    Yeah, I'm not convinced they'll take over on race bikes any time soon. Not enough upside to make up for the downside. Haven't they been withdrawn from cyclocross rules?
    Comparing the utility of disk brakes on cyclocross with road bike application is like comparing apples to pumpkins.
    There is a real benefit of disk brakes on cyclocross because riding conditions can be downright cruddy contaminating the wheel rim and dramatically reducing braking power of calipers. Plus the contact patch is bigger on cyclocross tires where stronger braking can be utilized.
    I do agree with you that it will be slow climb to acceptance on race bikes. I also believe in the context of road bikes, road disk brakes have a way to go in compactness, weight and development. There time may come in the future but believe it will be a while.
    Last edited by Campag4life; 05-14-14 at 06:08 PM.

  2. #27
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvdslw View Post
    Road disc makes too much sense not to be adopted by all who sanction and ride road bikes. Maybe it's an unfair advantage and or safety issue? I mean you get much improved stopping power which has proven itself in the mtb world, no carbon rim explosions from excessive heating of the brake surface, and a better looking set of wheels, especially aluminum wheels (no brake track). Seems to me Road Disc has taken the same approach as Road Tubeless, plenty of advantages to using the tech but not enough product and people willing to take the plunge.
    I don't honestly think they make all that much sense on a road bike...maybe when the roadies are riding 700x38 tires, or something with a bigger contact patch than some 120 psi 700x23.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    Since Specialized discovered that you can sell CF Rivendell clones to geriatric weekend warriors, there's a bonanza of "endurance" road bikes which aren't intended to be ridden competitively.
    Now that is funny.
    "Even people opposed to religion need calm minds and compassion to make their work more effective."

  3. #28
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM View Post
    I don't honestly think they make all that much sense on a road bike...maybe when the roadies are riding 700x38 tires, or something with a bigger contact patch than some 120 psi 700x23.



    Now that is funny.
    Specialized is laughing all the way to the bank. The only thing that Specialized copied for the Roubaix is the geometry of the Rivendell in terms of three point contact and that isn't even quite right. Grant has been right since the beginning as most that ride road bikes are nothing like top racers. Other than that, there is no comparison. On topic, marketing cuts both ways. I believe Rivendell sells their customers a bill of goods. You obviously take exception but Roubaix outsell Rivendells probably 5 to 1 and for good reason.

  4. #29
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Comparing the utility of disk brakes on cyclocross with road bike application is like comparing apples to pumpkins.
    That's not actually what I was doing but I can see how you could have interpreted it that way. The point was that allowing discs for CX was supposed to be the first step towards allowing them for road as well. Now, IIRC, UCI has changed the rules back to no discs for CX. If the UCI is backing away from discs in CX where there's a stronger argument for them, it doesn't bode well for allowing them in road racing.

    There is a real benefit of disk brakes on cyclocross because riding conditions can be downright cruddy contaminating the wheel rim and dramatically reducing braking power of calipers. Plus the contact patch is bigger on cyclocross tires where stronger braking can be utilized.
    I do agree with you that it will be slow climb to acceptance on race bikes. I also believe in the context of road bikes, road disk brakes have a way to go in compactness, weight and development. There time may come in the future but believe it will be a while.
    I don't think there is any question that you'll see road discs. They're already here. Whether or not they make the jump from "endurance" bikes to performance bikes is a whole different question.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  5. #30
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    ftfy. The pros get special geometry on their versions of those bikes.
    I think Boonen and maybe Cancellara get custom geometry, but they're the only ones (afaik).


    Yeah, I'm not convinced they'll take over on race bikes any time soon. Not enough upside to make up for the downside. Haven't they been withdrawn from cyclocross rules?
    Disc are allowed in cyclocross. From what I've gathered (and I'm not an expert), in some 'cross conditions disc is better, in others rim brakes are better.

    The UCI is reviewing it for road races, to figure out if the equipment is up to snuff. However, several bike manufacturers are clearly not waiting for the UCI -- a move that makes sense, since UCI regs are irrelevant to huge swaths of their customers.

  6. #31
    Senior Member lsberrios1's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about that new technology but it sure as hell looks sexy! I'm sure it's amazing to ride as well.
    Cat 6 going on PRO....

  7. #32
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM View Post
    I don't honestly think they make all that much sense on a road bike...maybe when the roadies are riding 700x38 tires, or something with a bigger contact patch than some 120 psi 700x23.



    Now that is funny.
    Grant Peterson really ought to take the popularity of "endurance" road bikes as something of a vindication. They embody everything he's been preaching for two decades minus the retrogrouchiness. To wit:

    * Sloping top tube for better standover on larger frames to get the bars higher
    * Taller head tube to get the bars higher
    * Lower bottom bracket to get the bars a bit higher and improve stability
    * Longer chainstays for compliance and stability
    * Clearance for wider tires
    * Lower gearing for easier climbing

    Specialized's innovation? Zertz.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  8. #33
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I think Boonen and maybe Cancellara get custom geometry, but they're the only ones (afaik).
    Cancellara (and the team) definitely get special geometry. If you want to pay through the nose, you can get it too. Domane Classics Edition - Trek Bicycle
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    Cancellara (and the team) definitely get special geometry. If you want to pay through the nose, you can get it too. Domane Classics Edition - Trek Bicycle
    Sexy, sexy, sexy, sexy. Now that is a hot bike.

  10. #35
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    That's not actually what I was doing but I can see how you could have interpreted it that way. The point was that allowing discs for CX was supposed to be the first step towards allowing them for road as well. Now, IIRC, UCI has changed the rules back to no discs for CX. If the UCI is backing away from discs in CX where there's a stronger argument for them, it doesn't bode well for allowing them in road racing.
    No such thing has happened. Disc brakes are very much CX legal and have been adopted by many US pros and somewhat fewer Europeans.

    Regarding disc brakes on road bikes: it's amazing that we still haven't got the message across that absolute braking power isn't the point. The point is that disc brakes allow better control of braking power, along with other advantages.

    The biggest question for legality in road racing, at least in my mind as a racer myself, is safety. Is there a significantly increased risk of lacerations and burns in multiple-rider crashes in a disc brake peloton? If so, is this offset by the more consistent and effective braking offered by discs leading to fewer crashes in the first place? The truth is that no one knows the answers to these questions yet.

    Outside of racing, I think things are much more clear. Disc brakes are a superior system to rim brakes, period. They are also being pushed hard by the industry. It will take a while, but disc brakes are going to become very popular on bicycles not used for sanctioned racing.

  11. #36
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    No such thing has happened. Disc brakes are very much CX legal and have been adopted by many US pros and somewhat fewer Europeans.

    Regarding disc brakes on road bikes: it's amazing that we still haven't got the message across that absolute braking power isn't the point. The point is that disc brakes allow better control of braking power, along with other advantages.

    The biggest question for legality in road racing, at least in my mind as a racer myself, is safety. Is there a significantly increased risk of lacerations and burns in multiple-rider crashes in a disc brake peloton? If so, is this offset by the more consistent and effective braking offered by discs leading to fewer crashes in the first place? The truth is that no one knows the answers to these questions yet.

    Outside of racing, I think things are much more clear. Disc brakes are a superior system to rim brakes, period. They are also being pushed hard by the industry. It will take a while, but disc brakes are going to become very popular on bicycles not used for sanctioned racing.
    Maybe BB7s suck, but IME, the advantages of disks for road are significantly overstated to say the least.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    Cancellara (and the team) definitely get special geometry. If you want to pay through the nose, you can get it too. Domane Classics Edition - Trek Bicycle
    The price only applies if you want the top spec version of the bike, it's available for much less if you spec it via project one. That being said it only brings it down to the normal domane pricing, which isn't all that cheap...

    Also there's a significant difference between BB7's and hydro brakes.

  13. #38
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    The biggest question for legality in road racing, at least in my mind as a racer myself, is safety. Is there a significantly increased risk of lacerations and burns in multiple-rider crashes in a disc brake peloton?
    I don't think they're too worried about that particular issue. It sounds like they are concentrating on whether the equipment is ready, and reviewing whether certain standards need to be in place.

    UCI decision on road disc brakes for competition expected in six months - BikeRadar


    Outside of racing, I think things are much more clear. Disc brakes are a superior system to rim brakes, period.
    I'd say it depends on what you do, and where you're doing it.

    If you live and ride in wet conditions on a regular basis, and you don't mind the small weight and aero penalty (assuming there is one), I'd say disc is a good idea. I don't ride in those conditions, and IMO road disc is not mature enough yet. Thus I passed on disc for my latest bike.

    I'd expect it will be more common on commuters, hybrids, urban bikes etc, but won't completely replace rim brakes.

  14. #39
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I don't think they're too worried about that particular issue. It sounds like they are concentrating on whether the equipment is ready, and reviewing whether certain standards need to be in place.

    UCI decision on road disc brakes for competition expected in six months - BikeRadar
    The UCI has previously essentially gone on record as saying "what's in it for us?" That was under the old regime... perhaps they are taking a more progressive approach now, but the frame certification program is still in place, and there is talk of introducing a wheel certification program as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I'd say it depends on what you do, and where you're doing it.
    Whether or not the system is better has nothing to do with what you are doing. Disc brakes are superior, period, full stop, end of story. Whether or not they make a big difference in safety or control is what depends; if you do all your riding on pan-flat roads, never go all that fast and don't brake that much, it may not matter much. I don't know how much of a difference discs would make to my riding. But they're still technically superior to rim brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    I'd expect it will be more common on commuters, hybrids, urban bikes etc, but won't completely replace rim brakes.
    Personally, I am far less interested in disc brakes for my commuter/urban bike(s) than I am for my road bike. I actually am a little mystified by the insistence that these are a more logical application for discs than a road bike. I never get very fast on my commuter bike, or in the city in general. Sure, more consistent performance in the rain would be nice, but at the speeds I'm going under the circumstances, it's not really a big deal. I do ride my road bike fast, in groups, down hills and in all weather conditions, and I value responsive, consistent and controllable braking a lot more under those conditions. That doesn't mean I'm champing at the bit to go buy a disc brake road bike tomorrow, I just think that the application of disc brakes on the road is a lot more logical than on a commuter bike.

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