redlude97

Bent 90 degree elbows means less frontal drag area=more aero. A low position with straight arms is worse. That is the thing with timtaks position. Its easily achievable with a normal fit in a position from the hoods/drops with the elbows bent, but it requires not having a gut and having a strong core, which many cyclists do not. Its also why you see many pros with lots of drop riding on the hoods with arms bent instead of in the drops, it has been proven to be more aero.

wphamilton

That's what I thought at first, but look more closely at the pic with the black lines and imagine his hands moved back to where the yellow arrow points. His arms would have the same frontal area.

timtak

I am probably slower than this cool girl: Heathpack. Each to his or her own but my ride works well for me, and for that reason, I recommend it to others.

One thing is, I do not have the empty roads to be able to go as narrow/pointing as Heathpack. I am not sure of the narrow to low trade-off. I can't go as narrow as Heathpack on the roads that I ride. Perhaps if I could I would ride higher. Yes! I think I do. My spinachi style short aerobars put me in Heathpack's position but I only use them when the road is completely clear of traffic. In any situation when there are a few cars I use my super-lowered road bike bars. They give me the aero and bike control that I need.

My form is simple: a 'Road Bike' X 'Time Trial Bike' cross. Elsewhere my form is sometimes called a "hipster bike." Some "hipsters" seem to know more that the road biking experts I think because some of the experts earn their livelihood from poor, brand-serving advice.

I am slow. I am old (51). But for me at least, my form allows me to go as fast as seems to be possible for me. I see a lot of young guys riding in a chest-meets-the-wind TDF peloton position, even though they are riding on their own, and I wish they'd all get a super lowered, lanced stem, like me.

Or they could ride like this....

While it is possibly the holy grail of cycling positions, I could not get into that position (above). It looks really uncomfortable. Like someone says above "Forget the pros, go for comfort" --- there is an element of that in the form I use. I feel comfortable.

redlude97

The bars should be moved up and back. They are too low for him. The most aero position is with the forearms parallel to the ground. Set up your drop so that you can achieve this position on the hoods with your back as low as you can comfortably hold power

redlude97

Is it because you don't have the core to hold your body up so you need straight arms to take the weight? Because your back position in pic above isn't that low. You can easily get that low with a more conventional fit.

noodle soup

don't forget that it's not painful for most somewhat fit cyclists to keep their head up.

wphamilton

Not many people can ride that way, not for very long. The guy in your picture doesn't even need his saddle. He's just riding above it, cruising down the road at 30 mph. Or more.

Timtak's stretched out arms are not much less aero, if any, than my more normal arm position in the drops, because if all you do is move the hands back (and bend your elbows) it doesn't change the frontal area. He's tried aerobars and didn't like them in the streets of Tokyo or wherever he's at. Maybe he needs to stiff-arm it, I don't know. But it probably makes sense for him.

Doug28450

STOP!!!

Stop trying to get timtak to try to change his position.

Just stop.

noodle soup

Perhaps he should stop trying to get cyclists to adopt his fit.

Doug28450

You know what. I agree.

timtak is towing the trolling line.

He needs to stop as well.

redlude97

which is the whole issue with his setup. He thinks he's more aero when in reality he's about as aero as an average rider with an average setup. If his goal was to be as aero as possible while being able to reach the levers, he should build up enough core to be able to use the flat forearm position at whatever back angle he can continue to make power with.
This guy for example is using that position with a pretty mild drop.

noodle soup

he's towing the line, but many of us are feeding the troll too. I'm guilty of this too, but it's more in the spirit of an intervention.

PaulRivers

I recently had an experience that that reminds me of this back and forth about fit and the specific fit above.

For most of my life it's been "the higher the seat the better". Just a few months ago I was on vacation using a rental bike, had trouble keeping up, raised the seat to being almost to high to solidly keep my foot on the pedal - no problem keeping up. More power, more endurance, felt better (though never entirely right).

After I got back I started doing the most basic physical therapy routines from Tom Danielson's Core Advantage. The book mentions that a lot of people have never actually used their glutes, and I definitely seemed to fit into this category. There was a particular exercise in the first physical therapy routine called Hip Bridge with Heel Slides that had you squeeze your glutes and do the exercise and it was god awful lol. I mean terrible. I mean, doing the exercise made me super pissed off, angry, feeling helpless, and then be completely exhausted and wiped out (including mentally bizarrely) for the next 2 days. Fortunately after about 5 times of doing it this feeling went away and I was able to at least do the first few and feel good.

I started trying to use my glutes on my bike and felt like I should lower my seat. So I did.

Withing 3 rides I was riding slightly faster than before (according to my speedometer) - with the seat lower.

My point isn't that people should or shouldn't do what I did - going through it was so awful, I don't know if it was worth it just for biking. I had another (non biking) leg injury I was trying to sort out.

From my point of view, my point is that I can see how there ends up being so much personal debate over bike position. A higher seat was always faster and better before. Whereas after some physical therapy exercises made me able to use my glutes (and likely some of my hamstrings that were locked up before), suddenly a different seat position was more efficient and faster.

I could have argued with someone forever who could have told me "you should have your seat lower". And at the time I would have been right, just lowering my seat by itself never would have worked better no matter how much riding. After I got my glutes working, now it's great.

caloso

This guy too.

The Republic of Offthebackistan : Photo

redlude97

wat

Heathpack 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug28450

STOP!!!

Stop trying to get timtak to try to change his position.

Just stop.

Its not that I care what @timtak does with his position, he's free to ride however he wants.

However, it's worth remembering that people who don't know any better come to BF to learn. They see people appreciating @timtak (I myself appreciate him, he seems like an interesting individual) and making comments like "he can ride faster & farther than most of us" (untrue) and read his advice about position on the bike & it's relationship to his speed. So when I personally point out that he is not in fact fast, I'm not "piling it on" as you suggested up thread. I'm just trying to inject some objective reality into this thread.

The funny thing is that all of these parameters are actually things that are objectively test-able, either in the wind tunnel or on the track (and to a lesser extent on the road). And these types of things are in fact tested very routinely. There is of course some variation between individuals, but the basics of what makes a good aerodynamic position are pretty well worked-out. I'm sorry but everyone's opinion is not equally valuable, just by virtue of the fact that we're all entitled to an opinion. People who objectively test various fit parameters on hundreds of individuals have a more valuable opinion than @timtak and guess what? They don't put people into his position on a bike.

So more power to @timtak for believing what he wants to believe and achieving a fit he likes. That does not mean that the rest of us need to go along with him as he advocates this fit for cyclists in general.

Obviously at some point, we'll all need to stop commenting because it's unlikely that @timtak is open to anyone's thoughts on his position (fair enough, he was not seeking input). But at least now enough sense has been spoken that people who don't know any better can reasonably read this thread & think twice about following @timtak's suggestions.

k_kibbler

Your heart is in the right place but even to a newbie those glasses reduce the wearer's credibility to exactly zero.

timtak

I am suggesting merely that people ride who ride in traffic, ride in with their head and upper body in something similar to your position, with their hands further apart covering their brake levers so that they can control their bike. A Road bike time trial cross. This is so dead obviously one good fit.


I am not aware of body of data/research. As far as I am aware, the vast majority of the aerodynamic testing is done for people competing in one of the pro events. There is no time trial commuting event other than that hipsters competing on Strava (eventually Strava will provide the answers as people publish their bike form).

I am not suggesting that you should quit your form on time trial events. If one rides in cordoned off roads and can afford a time trial bike then definitely, there is aerodynamic research that PROVES that your way of riding is the most aerodynamic and fastest.

There are many levels of traffic. E.g. in London some cyclists use fairly upright bikes with narrow handlebars to be able to see well and slip through gaps the traffic. As far as I am aware there is no research which proves that these bikes are faster. In higher levels of traffic, such as London I would not recommend my ride because getting down this low means that there is a reduction in visibility. There is not yet the research on all these different road environments. I live in a provincial town with a car passing me every 10 seconds or so. Some one who lives in more rural environment may want to get narrower at the front. In lower levels of traffic e.g. in rural US roads with so few cars that they are as good as cordoned off one might use a time trial bike.

What I don't agree with is "the pros are right" fiction, because I think it is economically motivated, NOT motivated by research (which does not yet exist).

Negative credibility perhaps.

Heathpack 

Quote:

Originally Posted by timtak

I am suggesting merely that people ride who ride in traffic, ride in with their head and upper body in something similar to your position, with their hands further apart covering their brake levers so that they can control their bike. A Road bike time trial cross. This is so dead obviously one good fit.

I am not aware of body of data/research. As far as I am aware, the vast majority of the aerodynamic testing is done for people competing in one of the pro events. There is no time trial commuting event other than that hipsters competing on Strava (eventually Strava will provide the answers as people publish their bike form).

I am not suggesting that you should quit your form on time trial events. If one rides in cordoned off roads and can afford a time trial bike then definitely, there is aerodynamic research that PROVES that your way of riding is the most aerodynamic and fastest.

There are many levels of traffic. E.g. in London some cyclists use fairly upright bikes with narrow handlebars to be able to see well and slip through gaps the traffic. As far as I am aware there is no research which proves that these bikes are faster. In higher levels of traffic, such as London I would not recommend my ride because getting down this low means that there is a reduction in visibility. There is not yet the research on all these different road environments. I live in a provincial town with a car passing me every 10 seconds or so. Some one who lives in more rural environment may want to get narrower at the front. In lower levels of traffic e.g. in rural US roads with so few cars that they are as good as cordoned off one might use a time trial bike.

What I don't agree with is "the pros are right" fiction, because I think it is economically motivated, NOT motivated by research (which does not yet exist).

Aero testing is not just for pros. Any one of us could have any bike aero tested. My fitter provides these services on the track. Usually people test TT or track (pursuit) bikes, because in these disciplines you are riding solo and not catching the benefit of the draft. But if someone were to want to test a road bike, you would not need to be a pro to do so. People who aero test TTist and trackies of course learn what kinds of things are fast on everyone and those principles can be extrapolated to road bike fit. But road bike fit for most of us is less about aero and more about power, endurance, bike handling & comfort. What you're doing with your bike (racing, commuting, endurance-riding, climbing, etc) will influence the combo of attributes of fit that each of us prioritize.

I rarely ride my TT bike on closed roads. Most of my races are not on closed roads, although traffic is typically light. I do training rides on open roads. Riding in my aero position in any kind of even medium city/town traffic, however, is just not something I do. It's unsafe for me & those around me because my vantage point is lower and I cannot see as far ahead of me. So I ride with my hands on the basebar in traffic. Yes this brings my hands near the brakes but if that were the primary reason, I could just add brakes to my aerobar extensions. Mostly the reason I go to the basebar in traffic is to improve vantage point.

I understand that you're not trying to get me to change my TT position. But what I am saying to you is that although I am faster on my TT bike than I am on my road bikes, I am still as fast or faster than you on my road bikes with a pretty standard fit. Age and gender are important factors in generating speed & I am your age but a slower gender. So if your argument is that your position is best because it's fast, that argument does not really hold.

Anyway, none of this matters as to you personally. If you like your bike fit, ride that way. When people ask your rationale, explain it. But before you advocate your position for someone else, you really should consider that it has it's drawbacks- maybe its not the fastest, reduced visibility, it puts the body into position that could result in injury to joints/tendons/ligaments, etc. Presenting pros and cons of your position would probably be the most helpful type of post.

And BTW, my TT bike was the least expensive of my bikes.

wphamilton

Do you really think that new riders will see these threads and want to copy @timtak's form? Take a step back, put yourself in their shoes: even if you don't know any better you're going to recognize unconventional when you see it. Coming to Bike Forums for advice to set up your bike, you aren't looking for off beat positions.

I applaud marching to your own drumbeat, and I kind of like the goofy glasses. I'm not sure what the advantage is over a full face visor but he's working towards his own solution to a problem he identified, where conventional answers were lacking in some regard, which puts him ahead of most cyclists.

I still think that he should put a prism mirror in the bottom so he can see down the road with his head down.

Heathpack 

I think that I am coming to this from the perspective of a much more new cyclist than almost everyone here. I took up cycling three years ago and knew very little when I came to BF. I have learned a lot here and I might have recognized that timtak's position was unusual but I would not have necessarily understood that it was not something to strive for. Most people don't ride that way but perhaps timtak is in the 99th percentile of good.

I see this lack of perspective all the time on BF. A newby shows up and asks what seems like a dumb question to everyone here- so dumb in fact that 12 people jump all over him accusing him of being a troll. People aren't born knowing this stuff. Many people take up cycling and ride by themselves initially, so they have little access to sound opinions.

I applaud timtak's originality as well, I think he should remain completely "as is". But again, that does not mean the rest of us need to applaud a wonky fit without providing some reasonable perspective for people who may just not know. But I think the point has been abundantly made by now that timtak's position is an odd one, so I will bow out from here on, there's just not that much more that needs to be said.

FullGas

even a rank noob will notice the weird-ass glasses he uses and figure out that he's probably not the guy to emulate.

timtak

I may just do that. They are cheap from aliexpress now.
1pc Amazing Lazy Creative Periscope Horizontal Reading TV Sit View Glasses On Bed Lie Down Bed Prism Spectacles The Lazy Glasses-in Reading Glasses from Men's Clothing & Accessories on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


I am slower than a lady ergo I am slow :-) ? Could it be that you are fast too? I still think I am fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathpack

When people ask your rationale, explain it. But before you advocate your position for someone else, you really should consider that it has it's drawbacks- maybe its not the fastest, reduced visibility, it puts the body into position that could result in injury to joints/tendons/ligaments, etc. Presenting pros and cons of your position would probably be the most helpful type of post.

Every time I post a picture of my glasses I could go into a lot of detail.

I will then, again. Generally speaking when people are set with a pro TDF style road bike (same brands, same riding position) are they told, "Well of course you ride in a completely different conditions, on your own, instead of drafting in a pack of 40 riders and you ride in traffic so, coincidentally, it just so happens to be a good idea for you to ride in the same style as the pros, for good visibility, and also to avoid injury to your joints/tendons/ligaments." I don't think so. I think that people are encouraged to think that the pros who earn their living trying to go fast know best. I just want to point out that when riding on ones own, it is not necessarily a good idea to ride like a pro, and that a "road X TT bike cross" (lanced bike, hipster bike) is an obvious option for the solo rider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathpack

And BTW, my TT bike was the least expensive of my bikes.

Rich too!

noodle soup

I hate to break it to you, but you aren't fast.

65ish people have done that segment this year.

#bigfishsmallpond

corrado33

Getting back to the original question:

I'm just super confused. I was thinking about this thread the other day when riding and I noticed that the top of my perfectly normal glasses obscured the end of my helmet. I know I wear my helmet correctly, so... how the hell does someone need glasses that are so tall? Massive forehead? I thought I had a big forehead already....

A few days later I was wearing wrap around safety glasses in lieu of sunglasses due to the overcast weather that day and I noticed the same thing. My helmet actually obscured more than the top frame of the glasses. So again, I'm really confused as to why someone would need such tall glasses.