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  1. #51
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    This topic comes up peripherally in lots of other threads like the ones about compact crank sets. For whatever reason cassettes with 13t smallest cogs would be a tremendous boon to many riders running 53/39 chain rings. In 2 X 10 speed a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 26 would be a great standard cassette with no holes up to 19t. In 2 X 11 speed you could just add a 30 tooth largest cog and still have the tight spacing for most riding along with a very reasonable bail out gear. These cassettes would also work great with 52/36 chain ring combinations, giving a 4.0 gear ratio like was so common back in the 1980s as well as the tight spacing throughout most of the cog range.

    How would it hurt Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM to offer these combinations everywhere up and down their product lines? It doesn't detract from the race pedigree of the upper end group sets to have cassettes available that are more suited to how the common folk ride. If you pedal a low cadence downhill and don't like to spin out, no problem, you could still have your 11t top gear. But for many of us the 13t top cog would be just fine. And filling in the 16 and 18t holes would be much appreciated as would getting the 30t low end with 11 speed without giving up anything in the middle of the range. Heck, even a 14t high end would suit some folks.

    So how do we make this happen?
    First, you need to find more than three people who care.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc3 View Post
    how could you not? it's in your sig...
    See my edit.
    Robert

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    First, you need to find more than three people who care.
    That's a problem. I can't count that high.
    Robert

    My hero: "Tar-Baby ain't sayin' nuthin'..." (Joel Chandler Harris, Uncle Remus")

  4. #54
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Did you guys just skip over the posts talking about Ultegra 6600 junior cassettes, which offer exactly what you have been complaining that Shimano doesn't offer?
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  5. #55
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    i do not understand why this thread was made.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Did you guys just skip over the posts talking about Ultegra 6600 junior cassettes, which offer exactly what you have been complaining that Shimano doesn't offer?
    It was a great idea, one I may consider for my next cassette, just installed the 12-25 though, so will wait until that wears out.

  7. #57
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Did you guys just skip over the posts talking about Ultegra 6600 junior cassettes, which offer exactly what you have been complaining that Shimano doesn't offer?
    Which will be followed by production of 6800 series 11 cog Junior sets.
    Junior gearing restrictions are not going away, let general rejoicing ensue......

    -Bandera
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Did you guys just skip over the posts talking about Ultegra 6600 junior cassettes, which offer exactly what you have been complaining that Shimano doesn't offer?
    Not at all. That information was assimilated by me at least. I would like a 13t smallest cog on an SRAM Power Dome however.
    Robert

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  9. #59
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
    Which will be followed by production of 6800 series 11 cog Junior sets.
    Junior gearing restrictions are not going away, let general rejoicing ensue......

    -Bandera
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    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Because that is what he has. What is so mysterious. Compacts are relatively recent items.

    What is mysterious to me is why you think 53x13 is remotely equivalent to a 50x11 that is standard with 11s cassettes. Do the math.

    SRAM, Shimano, and Campy do not make road bike gear ratios that fit many cyclist's needs. There is not a single 11s cassette on the market that meets my needs in conjunction with my compact crank. I never need the 11 or 12 cog and a couple hundred miles into a long ride, something more than 28 teeth might be nice on a 16% gradient.

    13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 25, 28, 32 would be be better overall for many riders.
    The way he phrased the original post implied that it was more hypothetical than just what cassette he wanted for his particular needs. He didn't bring up 13xX for compacts, which I would agree some people would be better served with. He brought up 11s, which would imply a new groupset which would also most likely mean a new crank. At that point using a compact would make more sense for his riding style and fitness, one starting with a 12T and a 48/50T ring would address. I also never brought up 50x11, but a 12-25 and 12-28 11 speed cassette is available, and 50x12 and 53x13 are pretty close to the same gear ratio. Like a initially said 53/39 13-26 is redundant with a combination of already available cranks and cassettes

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    The way he phrased the original post implied that it was more hypothetical than just what cassette he wanted for his particular needs. He didn't bring up 13xX for compacts, which I would agree some people would be better served with. He brought up 11s, which would imply a new groupset which would also most likely mean a new crank. At that point using a compact would make more sense for his riding style and fitness, one starting with a 12T and a 48/50T ring would address. I also never brought up 50x11, but a 12-25 and 12-28 11 speed cassette is available, and 50x12 and 53x13 are pretty close to the same gear ratio. Like a initially said 53/39 13-26 is redundant with a combination of already available cranks and cassettes
    What's wrong with your type of redundant? Why are the existing examples more righteous than the one that I want access to for my standard crank?
    Robert

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  12. #62
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
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    Let me see if I follow correctly the pattern of this thread:
    1) Your initial post laments that none of "the big 3" make a 13-26 10 speed or 13-30 11 speed to give you ideal gearing with your standard crank big ring.
    2) You get told a compact crank with a 50 ring is the same. You ignore it.
    3) You get told twice that Shimano makes junior 13-25 cassettes. You say nothing until it gets repeated.
    4) You get told Campagnolo makes 13-29 cassettes, and say nothing.
    5) You finally say that specifically you want SRAM to make your specific style cassette with a 13. Which was your whole point from the get go.
    6) You then argue about redundant solutions being okay. So the dire problem of your OP has been solved multiple ways before you posted, but not the solution you wanted.

    The only movement that this thread should inspire is one of the bowel.

  13. #63
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    Let me see if I follow correctly the pattern of this thread:
    1) Your initial post laments that none of "the big 3" make a 13-26 10 speed or 13-30 11 speed to give you ideal gearing with your standard crank big ring.
    2) You get told a compact crank with a 50 ring is the same. You ignore it.
    3) You get told twice that Shimano makes junior 13-25 cassettes. You say nothing until it gets repeated.
    4) You get told Campagnolo makes 13-29 cassettes, and say nothing.
    5) You finally say that specifically you want SRAM to make your specific style cassette with a 13. Which was your whole point from the get go.
    6) You then argue about redundant solutions being okay. So the dire problem of your OP has been solved multiple ways before you posted, but not the solution you wanted.

    The only movement that this thread should inspire is one of the bowel.
    I was thinking more retroperistalsis.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    Let me see if I follow correctly the pattern of this thread:
    1) Your initial post laments that none of "the big 3" make a 13-26 10 speed or 13-30 11 speed to give you ideal gearing with your standard crank big ring.
    2) You get told a compact crank with a 50 ring is the same. You ignore it.
    3) You get told twice that Shimano makes junior 13-25 cassettes. You say nothing until it gets repeated.
    4) You get told Campagnolo makes 13-29 cassettes, and say nothing.
    5) You finally say that specifically you want SRAM to make your specific style cassette with a 13. Which was your whole point from the get go.
    6) You then argue about redundant solutions being okay. So the dire problem of your OP has been solved multiple ways before you posted, but not the solution you wanted.

    The only movement that this thread should inspire is one of the bowel.
    What a bunch of crap. I regard this whole exchange as valuable and thought the many ideas were useful. But what, I can't have preferences? I can't analyze and judge the advice that's offered? I can't keep my existing crank? I can't prefer a brand? I can't sort through responses for those that I like more or less? It's just a discussion.

    But while we're at it, the compact crank solution is not at all the same mostly because of the greater relative separation of the rings. Saying it is the same over and over doesn't make it so.

    So after your pithy analysis, what wisdom with regard to the original question do you have to offer?
    Last edited by rpenmanparker; 05-20-14 at 09:14 PM.
    Robert

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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    What's wrong with your type of redundant? Why are the existing examples more righteous than the one that I want access to for my standard crank?
    Because as stated previously it eats into profits. They are more righteous because they are already available and work well, and as you see from the responses the need for such a combination isn't as popular as you initially imagined. If it was, they would already make it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    What a bunch of crap. I regard this whole exchange as valuable and thought the many ideas were useful. But what, I can't have preferences? I can't analyze and judge the advice that's offered? I can't keep my existing crank? I can't prefer a brand? I can't sort through responses for those that I like more or less? It's just a discussion.

    But while we're at it, the compact crank solution is not at all the same mostly because of the greater relative separation of the rings. Saying it is the same over and over doesn't make it so.

    So after your pithy analysis, what wisdom with regard to the original question do you have to offer?
    I was pretty specific about a 50/36 which has the same jump as 53/39.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    Because as stated previously it eats into profits. They are more righteous because they are already available and work well, and as you see from the responses the need for such a combination isn't as popular as you initially imagined. If it was, they would already make it.


    I was pretty specific about a 50/36 which has the same jump as 53/39.
    Fair enough. I asked the questions, because I wanted to know the answers. Of course I do like to flesh out the discussion a little. It's no fun to just say yessir, yessir when someone offers an opinion.
    Robert

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  17. #67
    Senior Member ConGrUenCy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    Because as stated previously it eats into profits. They are more righteous because they are already available and work well, and as you see from the responses the need for such a combination isn't as popular as you initially imagined. If it was, they would already make it.
    I think you're wrong. If nothing else is offered, people have to buy the 11T since we don't have a choice. Then, when we buy the 11T (due to lack of choice) folks like you and Shimano say "See, people are buying the 11T and they like it! It is popular!" *facepalm*

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConGrUenCy View Post
    I think you're wrong. If nothing else is offered, people have to buy the 11T since we don't have a choice. Then, when we buy the 11T (due to lack of choice) folks like you and Shimano say "See, people are buying the 11T and they like it! It is popular!" *facepalm*
    Since when is 11T the only option? Plenty of 9/10/11 speed cassette options starting with 12T.

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    Senior Member ConGrUenCy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    Since when is 11T the only option? Plenty of 9/10/11 speed cassette options starting with 12T.
    All SRAM 11s cassettes start from 11. 6800 has only one cassette starting with 12, a 12-25. They have no other climb friendly cassette starting at 12T, like a 12-28 or a 12-30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConGrUenCy View Post
    All SRAM 11s cassettes start from 11. 6800 has only one cassette starting with 12, a 12-25. They have no other climb friendly cassette starting at 12T, like a 12-28 or a 12-30.
    There's a 9000 12-28

  21. #71
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    We recently went through this whole process when we developed our cassettes. We wanted to be able to supply a decent range of choices without offering everything under the sun combinations for the exact reason stated earlier: What sells.

    There is a fixed qty we need to produce of each sku so if we weren't convinced we could sell enough of each sku to at least break even we dropped it.

    Surprisingly enough, we ended up with ranges running from 11~23/11-25 to 12~25/12-28T for both 10spd and 11spd. This is just where the bread and butter of the market is (we do have a 10spd 12-29 but that's a big as it gets). Believe me, if we thought we could sell 13~30T to roadies we would have made some but our research showed that this would be a loss and I would be giving them away for Christmas as high end potato peelers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    There's a 9000 12-28
    I love my DA 9000 12-28. Perfect gearing for my riding.

  23. #73
    Bridge Burner RollCNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post

    So after your pithy analysis, what wisdom with regard to the original question do you have to offer?
    My advice would have been to change to a cyclocross crank, 48T large ring and 36 or 34T small, but I was beaten to it by a similar suggestion, saw you reject it, so went no further.

    Down side is that 1 tooth cassette jumps represent slightly larger ratio changes, but a 12-25 now covers the gamut that your 13-26 proposal would. And a 12-25 is lighter. And readily available.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    My advice would have been to change to a cyclocross crank, 48T large ring and 36 or 34T small, but I was beaten to it by a similar suggestion, saw you reject it, so went no further.

    Down side is that 1 tooth cassette jumps represent slightly larger ratio changes, but a 12-25 now covers the gamut that your 13-26 proposal would. And a 12-25 is lighter. And readily available.
    That's good for a new build and bears consideration. With my three bikes equiped with standard cranks currently in my garage you can understand my interest in a cassette based solution. Likewise with all Shimano-SRAM compatible drive trains and wheels in excellent shape I am not likely to avail myself of the Campy solution anytime soon. Junior cassettes are something I should look into.
    Robert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    We recently went through this whole process when we developed our cassettes. We wanted to be able to supply a decent range of choices without offering everything under the sun combinations for the exact reason stated earlier: What sells.

    There is a fixed qty we need to produce of each sku so if we weren't convinced we could sell enough of each sku to at least break even we dropped it.

    Surprisingly enough, we ended up with ranges running from 11~23/11-25 to 12~25/12-28T for both 10spd and 11spd. This is just where the bread and butter of the market is (we do have a 10spd 12-29 but that's a big as it gets). Believe me, if we thought we could sell 13~30T to roadies we would have made some but our research showed that this would be a loss and I would be giving them away for Christmas as high end potato peelers.
    Just for more discussion fodder, what ended up being the choices of chainring combos that would go with these cassettes. Nice website by the way.

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