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  1. #1
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    How do we press the big three to offer 13t smallest cog cassettes?

    This topic comes up peripherally in lots of other threads like the ones about compact crank sets. For whatever reason cassettes with 13t smallest cogs would be a tremendous boon to many riders running 53/39 chain rings. In 2 X 10 speed a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 26 would be a great standard cassette with no holes up to 19t. In 2 X 11 speed you could just add a 30 tooth largest cog and still have the tight spacing for most riding along with a very reasonable bail out gear. These cassettes would also work great with 52/36 chain ring combinations, giving a 4.0 gear ratio like was so common back in the 1980s as well as the tight spacing throughout most of the cog range.

    How would it hurt Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM to offer these combinations everywhere up and down their product lines? It doesn't detract from the race pedigree of the upper end group sets to have cassettes available that are more suited to how the common folk ride. If you pedal a low cadence downhill and don't like to spin out, no problem, you could still have your 11t top gear. But for many of us the 13t top cog would be just fine. And filling in the 16 and 18t holes would be much appreciated as would getting the 30t low end with 11 speed without giving up anything in the middle of the range. Heck, even a 14t high end would suit some folks.

    So how do we make this happen?
    Robert

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    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    One of those on-line petitions.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Shimano offers a 14-25 9 speed cassette which is a very practical cassette to use... it tightens things up across the middle quite nicely.

    In theory one should be able to easily buy Shimano cassette cogs and from those, build whatever cassette you need or replace cogs that wear faster... this would probably cut into their profits though.

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    seems like it would be too redundant with a compact and a 50x12. 50/36 12x25 or 12x23 gives you essentially the same range and just as fast shifting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    Shimano offers a 14-25 9 speed cassette which is a very practical cassette to use... it tightens things up across the middle quite nicely.

    In theory one should be able to easily buy Shimano cassette cogs and from those, build whatever cassette you need or replace cogs that wear faster... this would probably cut into their profits though.
    I can't say about Shimano and Campy, but AFAIK for SRAM you can't buy the unified block that ends with fewer teeth than 14 or the two loose end cogs in anything other than 11, 12, and 13. Also the two end cogs are position specific I think, so a few other loose cog choices would be necessary to have a 13-26 or 13-30.
    Robert

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    Senior Member noise boy's Avatar
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    Campy does already 13-26 and 13-29 for 10sp.

  7. #7
    Senior Member ConGrUenCy's Avatar
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    Can Campy 11sp cassettes be used with Shimano/SRAM groupsets and wheels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    This topic comes up peripherally in lots of other threads like the ones about compact crank sets. For whatever reason cassettes with 13t smallest cogs would be a tremendous boon to many riders running 53/39 chain rings.
    Unfortunately most of the bike buying public has pathetic sluggish legs and wants a 53x12, 50x11, or even 53x11 big gear that's more than the 52x13 Eddy Merckx used to dominate the spring classics..

    Options without reasonable starting cogs are sufficient to serve that majority market, and not making cassettes with bigger starting cogs decreases the SKU count for improved profits throughout the bicycle component manufacturing and distribution chains.


    In 2 X 10 speed a 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 26 would be a great standard cassette with no holes up to 19t.
    I ride Campagnolo 10 cogs 13-26 and 14-23. Rode 13-23 9 cogs and 13-21 8 cogs before that because one tooth jumps to the 19 beat smaller starting cogs.

    Unfortunately SRAM has found that the majority of riders don't demand an 18 cog and consequently doesn't offer one in their 10 cog road lineup.

    How would it hurt Shimano, Campagnolo, and SRAM to offer these combinations everywhere up and down their product lines?
    More SKUs would cut profits and perhaps violate the executives fiduciary duty to their shareholders.

    So how do we make this happen?
    Campagnolo still sells 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26, 13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29, and 14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23 10 speed cassettes but lacks 13 tooth first position options in the 11 cog lineup.

    To get the other manufacturers on board your best bet would be stimulating consumer demand like what happened with wider tires. Fast 25mm tires are common now and 28mm ones not non-existent.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 05-21-14 at 12:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    seems like it would be too redundant with a compact and a 50x12. 50/36 12x25 or 12x23 gives you essentially the same range and just as fast shifting
    Redundancy is highly valued in road bike gearing. The idea is to have all your favorite middle front back combinations on both front rings so you can spend a majority of your time on either one. You want to shift not to get a middle-of-the range combination you like, but only to reach for an end combination that you need for wind or up or down hills, etc. Without redundancy you would be constantly shifting both front and rear to get a desired gear. That is no good at all.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    Unfortunately most of the bike buying public has pathetic sluggish legs and wants a 53x12, 50x11, or even 53x11 big gear that's more than the 52x13 Eddy Merckx used to dominate the spring classics..

    Options without reasonable starting cogs are sufficient for that majority market, and not making cassettes with bigger starting cogs decreases the SKU count for improved profits throughout the bicycle component manufacturing and distribution chains.



    I ride a 13-26 now along with a 14-23 straight block. Rode 13-23 9 cogs and 13-21 8 cogs before that.



    More SKUs would cut profits and perhaps violate the executives fiduciary duty to their shareholders.



    Campagnolo still sells 13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-26, 13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29, and 14-15-16-17-18-19-20-21-22-23 10 speed cassettes but lacks 13 tooth first position options in the 11 cog lineup.

    To get the other manufacturers on board your best bet would be stimulating consumer demand like what happened with wider tires. Fast 25mm tires are common now and 28mm ones not non-existent.
    The fewer SKU argument is certainly sound and likely correct, but can it be THAT important. I don't see how it could outweigh the potential for a reasonable number of folks to acquire an extra cassette for different type of riding. That has to be worth something.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Redundancy is highly valued in road bike gearing. The idea is to have all your favorite middle front back combinations on both front rings so you can spend a majority of your time on either one. You want to shift not to get a middle-of-the range combination you like, but only to reach for an end combination that you need for wind or up or down hills, etc. Without redundancy you would be constantly shifting both front and rear to get a desired gear. That is no good at all.
    I don't think you understood what i meant. Not redundancy in gears but redundancy in products offered. if 53x13 is the biggest gear you need, then that is very easy to achieve with a 50T ring instead. Why is there a need for a 53 in that case? Like I said 50/36 12x25 or 12x23 covers the same range with essentially the same steps as your proposed 53/39 13-26. So what does shimano have to gain by adding those other cassettes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConGrUenCy View Post
    Can Campy 11sp cassettes be used with Shimano/SRAM groupsets
    Yes.

    and wheels?
    Not without a freehub change and definitely not with Shimano brand wheels.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
    I don't think you understood what i meant. Not redundancy in gears but redundancy in products offered. if 53x13 is the biggest gear you need, then that is very easy to achieve with a 50T ring instead. Why is there a need for a 53 in that case? Like I said 50/36 12x25 or 12x23 covers the same range with essentially the same steps as your proposed 53/39 13-26. So what does shimano have to gain by adding those other cassettes?
    Sorry I didn't get that. I would rather buy a new cassette than a new crank.
    Robert

    "Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then." (Bob Seger, "Against the Wind")

  14. #14
    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    I'd like a 13-32 touring cassette. Then again if I had the cash I'd probably buy a new compact crank and use normal cassettes of 12-30 or 32. Curse you BB30! It's definitely a standard for those who have the cash (as shimano doesn't have BB30 cranks

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    You could probably create this yourself? Get a 12-26/11-26 and then maybe an LBS will sell you the individual cogs you need.

    For me I'd just need to get rid of the 12 and get a 18 cog. I wonder if the cassette lockring would screw on right on the 13?

    For 105 5800, a 12-27 would be really nice, maybe a 13-26/13-27. (11 speed).
    Last edited by zymphad; 05-20-14 at 01:05 PM.

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    Component companies want to standardize 50/34 and don't want to produce 53/39 anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadandmountain View Post
    Component companies want to standardize 50/34 and don't want to produce 53/39 anymore.
    Who doesn't make a 53/39?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Sorry I didn't get that. I would rather buy a new cassette than a new crank.

    I'm with you there. A lot faster and easier just to change the cassette for a change in gearing. I run road triples with 5-8 speed freewheels/cassettes in the 12/13-21/23 range. This weekend however, I had the once yearly super climbing ride. This year I rode it on a 7 speed and on went the 12-28. Last year it was a 5 speed bike with a 14-28. I only got on the 14 briefly either year and certainly not the 12t this year. Now a 13-23 is back on until the next hilly ride. It took about a minute and I have tight ratios through all of the gears. On relatively flat land which is where I mostly ride, the 52/42 and 13-whatever works a lot better than the 50/36 and 11-whatever. Especially on the top end of the cassette. The granny is on there in case I encounter any large hills.

    By the way, I guess I am not a top notch cyclist. On downhills, particularly steep ones I use this seemingly unheard of method called "coasting."

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by seypat View Post
    By the way, I guess I am not a top notch cyclist. On downhills, particularly steep ones I use this seemingly unheard of method called "coasting."
    Who doesn't coast? Just have to pedal hard over the crest and hammer it at the top to get optimal speed quickly. If you don't, you'll likely won't reach top speed for that downhill just coasting from the top.

    I think that's what people mean by hammer it on the downhill.

    I'm on compact with 12-25 10 speed, working alright. For me my drivetrain is quieter on 12-25 than 11-28, but the 34 compensates on the hills.

  20. #20
    L-I-V-I-N dtrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zymphad View Post
    For 105 5800, a 12-27 would be really nice, maybe a 13-26/13-27. (11 speed).
    Yeah, I was curious about this. Even with a compact, I'm not sure I need an 11t. Mostly running 12-27 and 12-26 (9 and 10 speed) stuff with compact cranks currently. Shimano had a DA 9000 12-28, but it wasn't offered in 6800 (just 12-25...or 11-28 and 11-32). From what I've seen, 5800 has even fewer options.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtrain View Post
    Yeah, I was curious about this. Even with a compact, I'm not sure I need an 11t. Mostly running 12-27 and 12-26 (9 and 10 speed) stuff with compact cranks currently. Shimano had a DA 9000 12-28, but it wasn't offered in 6800 (just 12-25...or 11-28 and 11-32). From what I've seen, 5800 has even fewer options.
    Would be nice to have more appropriate gearing for normal folks who still want the snappy, quality shifting of the 105 group. Not everyone is climbing huge mountains and hammering on the 11T on team trainings.

  22. #22
    Portland Fred banerjek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Sorry I didn't get that. I would rather buy a new cassette than a new crank.
    No need to get a new crank. New rings aren't much and you can tune the ratios pretty much exactly as you'd want.

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    Miche makes cassettes with individual cogs. I have their 9 speed compatible on my cross bike (customized 13-29). The ten speed Shimano compatible can be found here. They also make Campy compatible. So far I have no major complaints. The shifting has be adequate with this cassette with over 3000 miles on it. My gut feeling is that since they are an Italian company that their Campy cassettes probably shift a little better but overall my Shimano 9 speed has been fine. I'm pretty sure these cassettes and thieir cogs are also available on Amazon.
    2012 Pinarello FP Due,2010 Scattante X-330(Cyclocross),1988 Fuji Sagres SP (Road Bike)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by noise boy View Post
    Campy does already 13-26 and 13-29 for 10sp.
    +1 I have a Campy 13-26. Campy makes the best wheels anyways so why not go Campagnolo?

  25. #25
    Senior Member rousseau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niloc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noise boy
    Campy does already 13-26 and 13-29 for 10sp.
    +1 I have a Campy 13-26. Campy makes the best wheels anyways so why not go Campagnolo?
    I've got a 13-26 on my bike.

    Bizarre thread.
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