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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoota View Post
    You can tell a noticeable difference between two sets of wheels that are 83g apart and about the same depth?!? I find that very surprising.
    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Placebo is a wonderful thing.

    101 look pretty expensive for an aluminum rim.
    First of all, shape determines aero performance, not weight. Second, last I looked, the WS19 is a shallow v-shape with a flat spoke bed center at 22mm height, whereas the 101 is a 30mm toroidal shape. Different shapes, one designed to be light, another optimized for aero.

    I also think the OP misquoted the 19s weight, which Williams listed at 1353gm, so to the extent that the OP can feel spin-up differences and perhaps other attributes of feel/ride quality, a 170gm weight difference would certainly be part of the reason for that.
    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  2. #27
    Senior Member shoota's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    First of all, shape determines aero performance, not weight. Second, last I looked, the WS19 is a shallow v-shape with a flat spoke bed center at 22mm height, whereas the 101 is a 30mm toroidal shape. Different shapes, one designed to be light, another optimized for aero.

    I also think the OP misquoted the 19s weight, which Williams listed at 1353gm, so to the extent that the OP can feel spin-up differences and perhaps other attributes of feel/ride quality, a 170gm weight difference would certainly be part of the reason for that.
    First of all, where did I say weight determined aero performance? I still think there's a little placebo effect going on here.
    2005 Cannondale six13 10s SRAM

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoota View Post
    First of all, where did I say weight determined aero performance? I still think there's a little placebo effect going on here.
    You didn't say that, and I didn't say you did. What you did suggest was that there was no discernible difference between wheel sets weighing nearly the same and of roughly the same depth, which totally ignores the single, most important factor in aero performance, rim shape.

    Further, discernible differences between wheel sets can be felt (by riders paying attention, anyway) for reasons other than weight and rim depth, which you also ignored, e.g. hub characteristics like flange spacing, flange height, bearing placement, rim design, rim material, spoke type, lacing pattern, etc.

    I'm not necessarily saying that any one of those features will definitely make the wheel feel different (although rim and spoke features can be profound), because that depends on not only build factors but how the wheel is ridden. Heavy, aggressive riders will elicit different responses from wheels than light, less powerful riders, for instance.

    Of course, you're free to ignore all that and think what you want, too.
    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  4. #29
    Senior Member shoota's Avatar
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    Ok I can get on board with that.
    2005 Cannondale six13 10s SRAM

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    What do you mean? What does "essentially the same aerodynamically" mean? What does Zipp say?

    I looked at the 101 (now 30C) before I bought my last set of wheels, and I believe the 101s are not Zipp's premier Firecrest rim profile. The Zipp site says only the 202,303,404 and 808 use the Firecrest, which is "more aerodynamic than any other rim design." What that means, exactly, is unclear in terms of aero efficiency, but I'd be surprised if Zipp means the 101 and 202 are "essentially the same aerodynamically," but perhaps you have some other insight?

    Also, the 202 is wider overall, bead to bead, and 2mm deeper than 101, so if rim shape affects aero performance, well, there's some reason to expect difference between those two.
    Essentially the same aerodynamically means zipp claims their drag is within a watt of one another http://www.zipp.com/media/pdfs/zipp_...e_flyer_11.pdf.

    You can get the same aero performance as the 101,202 from Flo's 30mm aluminum clincher for less than $600.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    First of all, shape determines aero performance, not weight. Second, last I looked, the WS19 is a shallow v-shape with a flat spoke bed center at 22mm height, whereas the 101 is a 30mm toroidal shape. Different shapes, one designed to be light, another optimized for aero.

    I also think the OP misquoted the 19s weight, which Williams listed at 1353gm, so to the extent that the OP can feel spin-up differences and perhaps other attributes of feel/ride quality, a 170gm weight difference would certainly be part of the reason for that.
    Have you ever 'spun up' a wheel with your little finger from 0 to 30mph? It takes very little power, so for the OP to claim one wheel vs another was 'definitely' faster to spin up is most likely due to placebo. You might feel some difference between wheels but it's unlikely to be related to speed. Same applies to aero effects. The 13W difference (@30mph) zipp measured between 101s and a standard alum clincher requires very careful measurements in a controlled setting. It's much more difficult to measure a difference, let alone 'feel' a difference in the real world with changing wind, cars driving by etc.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    Have you ever 'spun up' a wheel with your little finger from 0 to 30mph? It takes very little power, so for the OP to claim one wheel vs another was 'definitely' faster to spin up is most likely due to placebo. You might feel some difference between wheels but it's unlikely to be related to speed. Same applies to aero effects. The 13W difference (@30mph) zipp measured between 101s and a standard alum clincher requires very careful measurements in a controlled setting. It's much more difficult to measure a difference, let alone 'feel' a difference in the real world with changing wind, cars driving by etc.
    Yup, I can't tell any difference between my various aluminum rims. Any difference is probably due to different tires and/or pressure. I can only tell a difference when switching to my carbon race tubulars. Even then it's not huge.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  8. #33
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    My williams 19's are an older set with bladed spokes thus the slightly heavier weight.

    the 101 rims are slightly different ie. curved braking surface, than the newer 30's

    Zipp is vague (jeez what a shocker) about what constitutes "firecrest" but I would think

    it's the combination of shape, material as well as the dimples.. so I can buy there IS a

    difference in earodynamics and they didn't 'dimple' the aluminum.

    I'm not going to argue the legitamacy of the ablility of a rider to detect diffrences in

    weight, quaility, aeroness, or spinup..

    As for the ability to "detect or dicerne" a diffence in equipment..

    it's not for me to say you should feel a difference any more than it is for you to say someone shouldn't

    the difference it noticable for me. and I'm past the "placebo phase" of these wheels

    It's nothing new to hear riders say they can or can't tell the difference between tires, wheels,

    and even bikes.. each to the consternation of the other

    I wouldn't have paid ful price for the 101's and I didn't pay near that..

    and I would never pay near retail for 202's either.. Just wondering if I was missing out

    I'm glad to hear with similar bikes that the difference "can" be neglible..

    I'm certainly not a watt monster, but at my wieght, I don't need to be.

    I think all these little equipment issues become alittle more significant to a lighter rider
    aka "Harry Guads"

  9. #34
    Senior Member Darth Steele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoota View Post
    You can tell a noticeable difference between two sets of wheels that are 83g apart and about the same depth?!? I find that very surprising.


    Maybe he is a CAT 1 and getting his bike ready for the TDF? He could be planning some break-aways in the mountains to drop Chris Froome ..every gram counts

  10. #35
    Senior Member Darth Steele's Avatar
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    I really really don't understand why do wheel cost that much. As for weekend warriors (like myself) you will not see any noticeable performance gains. Yes, your bike will look better.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Darth Steele's Avatar
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    I really really don't understand why do wheel cost that much. As for weekend warriors (like myself) you will not see any noticeable performance gains. Yes, your bike will look better.


    go with the 404s

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