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  1. #26
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    When BB30 first went mainstream there was a lot of resistance from frame factories as it pushed the tolerances onto them. With BSA they could make the frame with the cups bonded in and then machine the threads in perfect alignment. With BB30 the placement in the mold had to be spot on and the amount of work that both could be done and was needed to be done was problematic.

    I think PF30 is a step in the right direction but there are still production issue that didn't exist with BSA. The problem here is that these issues don't become apparent until after the bike is built and ridden.

    Most issue are caught during production but, as with anything manufacturered, there will always be a small percent that fail I the field.
    Speaking of manufacturing Bob, some of the ardent supporters of BB30 claim that part of its performance advantage over English threaded aka external bearing BB is...co-axiality of BB30 bores can be held tighter than the threading of the cups used in an English threaded BB. If you think about it, the bores themselves of insert molded English threaded cups first have to be held as tight as BB30 bores...but then you have to roll a thread into those English threaded cups. This increases tolerance and makes the argument for threadless BB30. As you say it always comes down to process...a manufacturing control plan and quality control. Same argument you make for good versus bad carbon. Process, process, process.

    A further note. 'In theory' PF30 is good because it comes down to the 'cylindricity' of a 46mm ID hole in a carbon shell if this can be controlled to a tight tolerance. It could be argued that a PF30 hole can be controlled tighter then two insert molded bearing cups...but probably not a single one if both bores are shared. In the case of PF30 it really comes down to the 'process' of the crankset installer if subscribing to the use of adhesive to pressed in Delrin bushings. If pressing in Delrin bushings and NOT immediately installing the crank and adjusting preload...if you use say epoxy or Loctite, now the bushing bores centers are misaligned and bearing drag will be increased if the adhesive sets up prior to installing the crank which aligns cups and bearing bores. The corollary to this and counterpoint to using adhesive is....if you don't use adhesive and the bores are misaligned which they will be based upon a given tolerance....then the crank will align them and the bushings will dislodge at some level. This is precisely why Specialized changed their narrow PF30 what they call carbon OSBB installation procedure I linked...too many Delrin bushings lost their seat and support which causes them to squirm and lose their shape and fail...what happened to the OP's Foil.
    Last edited by Campag4life; 06-08-14 at 10:52 AM.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Trucker Dan's Avatar
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    I have a friend who had his bb wallow out and become loose on his 2013 foil with dura-ace 7900. He had less than 5000 miles on the bike. Scott warranty replaced the frame with an identical frame.

  3. #28
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trucker Dan View Post
    I have a friend who had his bb wallow out and become loose on his 2013 foil with dura-ace 7900. He had less than 5000 miles on the bike. Scott warranty replaced the frame with an identical frame.
    Possible Scott is remiss on not specing epoxy to keep Delrin bushings in place. In fact probable. A further dynamic is...if a Shimano crankset which has mechanical preload and not wavewasher which exerts preload based upon BB shell width and crank spindle tolerance...if a Shimano crank is set up too loose axially, this will promote dislodging of the Delrin bushings because in effect a hint of axial preload helps keep the bushings and bearings seated. Once the bushings come slightly loose, then cyclic pedal forces will cause the abrasive wear.

  4. #29
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Speaking of manufacturing Bob, some of the ardent supporters of BB30 claim that part of its performance advantage over English threaded aka external bearing BB is...co-axiality of BB30 bores can be held tighter than the threading of the cups used in an English threaded BB. If you think about it, the bores themselves of insert molded English threaded cups first have to be held as tight as BB30 bores...but then you have to roll a thread into those English threaded cups. This increases tolerance and makes the argument for threadless BB30. As you say it always comes down to process...a manufacturing control plan and quality control. Same argument you make for good versus bad carbon. Process, process, process.
    I missed this. I was away over the weekend.

    I understand your point and I both agree and disagree based on what I've seen. For instance, I had a 2008 Fuji in BSA where the two cups we molded in and then tack welded at the join, inside the shell. Guess what broke...But the real point is that the alignment came from the BB itself; It was rigid and as long as the threads were perpendicular to the frame it was good to go.

    The problem with some press fit designs is that each bearing is oriented separately. If one is off then the whole system is compromised and there is no strength or guidance from the BB itself. PF30 is a bit better in this regard.

    As a personal example of this we saw some frames that were fine out of the mold but after the paint was baked on a very, very small alignment issues developed that only surfaced once the bikes were built and ridden. I don't know why this wasn't caught in final QC (or maybe their go/no go gauges weren't up to the task?) but I know one vendor we worked with had this specific problem. I don't think this would have been an issue with BSA.

    As I said, even if tighter tolerances are possible with press fit systems, it pushes that responsibility onto the frame factory and removes it from the component maker to a large degree.
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  5. #30
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    I missed this. I was away over the weekend.

    I understand your point and I both agree and disagree based on what I've seen. For instance, I had a 2008 Fuji in BSA where the two cups we molded in and then tack welded at the join, inside the shell. Guess what broke...But the real point is that the alignment came from the BB itself; It was rigid and as long as the threads were perpendicular to the frame it was good to go.

    The problem with some press fit designs is that each bearing is oriented separately. If one is off then the whole system is compromised and there is no strength or guidance from the BB itself. PF30 is a bit better in this regard.

    As a personal example of this we saw some frames that were fine out of the mold but after the paint was baked on a very, very small alignment issues developed that only surfaced once the bikes were built and ridden. I don't know why this wasn't caught in final QC (or maybe their go/no go gauges weren't up to the task?) but I know one vendor we worked with had this specific problem. I don't think this would have been an issue with BSA.

    As I said, even if tighter tolerances are possible with press fit systems, it pushes that responsibility onto the frame factory and removes it from the component maker to a large degree.
    In bold is a great point and to help the 41 who may not be hyper focused on tech, my suggestion is run and don't walk from any frameset that has BB30 that doesn't have an insert molded 'one piece' BB30 bore cylinder. See a pic of the Specialized BB30 below for perspective to those interested.

    What a single piece BB30 cylinder which connects both bores promotes:
    1. Higher strength. Both bores connected ensures that both bores will stay in place and offer a stiffer BB.
    2. Bore alignment. If BB30 bores are insert molded separately as you posit Bob, this sets the frame up for much higher tolerance and potentially higher crank spindle/bearing drag.

    I would say most carbon frameset BSA aka English threaded BB's are very similar to the best connected bore BB30 framesets. Processing is very similar...both insert mold an alloy BB cylinder. Only difference other than I.D. is...a BSA English threaded BB has bores that are threaded. In fact these threads can easily be added to the BSA cylinder 'prior to' placing the cylinder in the mold for bonding to the carbon. So there is an added operation for BSA and if comparing the two, adding the thread creates an additional tolerance fractionally contributing to lack of bore center agreement.

    I also included a pic of my English Threaded BB with Campy cups threaded in...which shows a 'thru cylinder' on my Roubaix just like how Specialized produces their more ubiquitous BB30 bikes.

    OP, also provided a Specialized PF30 pic which OP is probably identical to what you have with your Foil...a virgin carbon thru hole.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Campag4life; 06-09-14 at 08:16 AM.

  6. #31
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Praxix BB option for PF30 for Shimano Crank...

    Here you go OP.

    Since so many struggle with proper setup and maintenance of BB30 and PF30, an enterprising company has come up with what I believe the best solution for those in particular who aren't real keen on setting up BB/PF30 as intended...or maintaining it. Obviously the engineers at Praxis felt this pain and responded. Demand meet supply. I believe these BB's will be wildly popular. OP because the BB is an expanding collet, I also believe it will shore up any added tolerance you have if your wear is frame based version abrasion to your press in Delrin cups. $85 and includes integrated bearings and looks to be installable in 20 minutes. Shimano crank is plug and play...no spacers which are needed with traditional BB/PF30 with Shimano 24mm crank O.D. Pretty nice solution for Shimano crank lovers who have BB/PF30 framesets who don't want to mess with gluing in bearings and/or bushings.

    So you have another option if you want to deviate from design intent and a lot easier for the average home mechanic or bike shop to get it right:

    http://praxiscycles.com/wp-content/u...structions.pdf

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Here you go OP.

    Since so many struggle with proper setup and maintenance of BB30 and PF30, an enterprising company has come up with what I believe the best solution for those in particular who aren't real keen on setting up BB/PF30 as intended...or maintaining it. Obviously the engineers at Praxis felt this pain and responded. Demand meet supply. I believe these BB's will be wildly popular. OP because the BB is an expanding collet, I also believe it will shore up any added tolerance you have if your wear is frame based version abrasion to your press in Delrin cups. $85 and includes integrated bearings and looks to be installable in 20 minutes. Shimano crank is plug and play...no spacers which are needed with traditional BB/PF30 with Shimano 24mm crank O.D. Pretty nice solution for Shimano crank lovers who have BB/PF30 framesets who don't want to mess with gluing in bearings and/or bushings.

    So you have another option if you want to deviate from design intent and a lot easier for the average home mechanic or bike shop to get it right:

    http://praxiscycles.com/wp-content/u...structions.pdf
    Thanks mate, just had a quick look at it but it doesn't look like it will work on the 86mm BB of the foil unless they have different sizes.

    Still no update on the frame yet, Scott haven't even said to send it in yet. Seriously getting beyond a joke at this point

  8. #33
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    Quick update on my frame.
    After 2 weeks of my shop doing everything scott has asked of them they have turned around and said they will not deal with them as they are no longer a scott dealer (they knew this 2 weeks ago)
    No dropping my bike off this weekend at a bike shop nearby who have agreed to try and take care of the scott warranty for me.
    Hopefully I'll have some kind of answer on Monday.

  9. #34
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    Buy a new bike.

  10. #35
    Senior Member fstshrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Thanks mate, just had a quick look at it but it doesn't look like it will work on the 86mm BB of the foil unless they have different sizes.

    Still no update on the frame yet, Scott haven't even said to send it in yet. Seriously getting beyond a joke at this point
    Does it not use a standard BB30? It should work. Did you call them?
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  11. #36
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    I would love to buy a new bike but my fiancÚ would kill me plus the other bike I was looking at was a new addict, obviously the outcome of this will affect any future decision I make.
    Will drop it off tomorrow to the scott dealer and hopefully I'll have some kind of answer Monday.

  12. #37
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    I would love to buy a new bike but my fiancÚ would kill me plus the other bike I was looking at was a new addict, obviously the outcome of this will affect any future decision I make.
    Will drop it off tomorrow to the scott dealer and hopefully I'll have some kind of answer Monday.
    There are alloy versions of the PF86 BB you have that can be loctite into the frame. All is not lost.
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  13. #38
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    No its not standard BB30. BB86 is a smaller diameter and stretched version of PF30.

    In spite of my effort to help however reading the OP's responses, I am not convinced this will have a happy ending.

    This happens quite a bit when good advice is given, it sometimes gets lost in the interpretation.

    If that bike was mine, it would have been back on the road in 24 hrs.

    Comparison of BB30 and BB86 below:
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #39
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    Don't worry campag I will be getting the epoxy fix done if they don't warranty the frame.
    I'm only pursuing it out of stubbornness and the fact I'm enjoying running at the moment.

  15. #40
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Don't worry campag I will be getting the epoxy fix done if they don't warranty the frame.
    I'm only pursuing it out of stubbornness and the fact I'm enjoying running at the moment.
    Cool. As suggested:
    1. Run a copy of that spec. Your BB86 installation on your Scott is identical to Specialized carbon OSBB.
    2. Be sure to use a new BB as no doubt part of your slip fit is due to the OD of your BB bushings wearing.

    Let us know how it goes.

  16. #41
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Comparison of BB30 and BB86 below:
    Is that an ACB design attached?
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  17. #42
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    Actually the bushings are the same external diameter as brand new ones, same cap fit too as the first shop tried that and showed me with the digital calipers.
    But all new parts will be used if going down the rebuild path, just gonna wait and see.

    Thank you to everyone so far who has come up with suggestions for this, it is much appreciated.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    I would love to buy a new bike but my fiancÚ would kill me plus the other bike I was looking at was a new addict, obviously the outcome of this will affect any future decision I make.
    Will drop it off tomorrow to the scott dealer and hopefully I'll have some kind of answer Monday.
    this does not bode well... me thinks your BB is the least of your worries.

  19. #44
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Is that an ACB design attached?
    ACB design?

  20. #45
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    ACB design?
    Angular contact bearings.

    I was wondering if it was part of a set of drawings for bearings specific to the BBs shown.
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  21. #46
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Angular contact bearings.

    I was wondering if it was part of a set of drawings for bearings specific to the BBs shown.
    Don't know the original of the drawing or any relation to bearing seat angle.
    I pulled it off the web to illustrate the difference between BB86...what the OP has and BB30 in terms of geometry.
    I also dismiss the reference on the drawing that BB86 is 1.3 X's stronger. I almost pshopped that off the drawing because it wasn't my intent to highlight any strength difference. Would love to see the math on that aka moment of inertia calculation. More than a few 1500+ watt riders doing just fine on BB/PF30.

  22. #47
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Actually the bushings are the same external diameter as brand new ones, same cap fit too as the first shop tried that and showed me with the digital calipers.
    But all new parts will be used if going down the rebuild path, just gonna wait and see.

    Thank you to everyone so far who has come up with suggestions for this, it is much appreciated.
    Good to use fresh bearings if epoxying in BB. I want to give you assurance, I know for fact that if the tech follows the Specialized spec to the letter for installing your BB86, you will have 0 issues with your Scott. He has to install the crank and adjust preload before the epoxy sets up to insure that bearings are in alignment. Let the bike sit for 24 hours before you ride it to let the epoxy harden.

  23. #48
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    Well we are now waiting to hear back from Scotts head office in Switzerland.
    Bike shop said they had never seen anything like it before, mechanic was shocked that he could pop it in with 1 finger.
    More than a little bit pissed off too that I have to foot the bill for refitting the groupset.

  24. #49
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Well we are now waiting to hear back from Scotts head office in Switzerland.
    Bike shop said they had never seen anything like it before, mechanic was shocked that he could pop it in with 1 finger.
    More than a little bit pissed off too that I have to foot the bill for refitting the groupset.
    You don't have to foot the bill for a new groupset if you keep the frame you have and epoxy the BB in...which is per specification for Specialized.
    You don't have any mechanic friends that will install it for a good steak and beer?...if you do get a new frame?

    Let's see if you pass the definition of insanity test. You know what that is right?....doing the same thing over again and expecting a different outcome.

    Your old frame started out as a new frame. If you don't epoxy in a new BB into your new frame then, expect the same wear over time.
    The reason that Specialized specs epoxy is to prevent noise issues and also to prevent what happened to you...carbon shell wear due to Delrin bushing squirm and abrasion.

    Good luck.

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    Well I finally got some good news today. They are shipping out a replacement frame. They are sending a blue, black and white 2014 foil 10 frame.
    Hopefully I will actually have it back by the 20th of july.

    In hindsight I wish I had of just done the epoxy fix on the frame and been riding but at least it will be a brand new frame when I get it back.

    Its gonna be a ***** getting back to where I was.

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