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  1. #1
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    scott foil BB problem

    I hope this is the right spot for this.
    Ive got a 1 year old scott foil 20 that has developed slop in the BB housing in the frame. You can literally install the bottom bracket into the frame with 1 finger and remove with 1 finger.
    This was first picked up from my cranks rocking which was first thought to be a stuffed bottom bracket but found the frame issue instead.

    Bike is in to get this sorted but scott are dragging their heels big time in sorting anything out.

    Has anyone else had this problem or have heard of it?

  2. #2
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Have you had the crank off the bike? Did you install the bottom bracket?

    The Scott Foil uses the Shimano BB91 which utilizes a standard GXP (external bearing spindle length) crank.
    What crank do you have?

    The BB91 bottom bracket is pressed right into a 41mm carbon frame. There are two potential wear areas.
    A. the OD of the bushings
    B. the ID of the virgin carbon BB hole.

    Wheels Mfg - BB86/92 Bottom Brackets

    Resolution:
    1. Replace the BB
    2. If insufficient press with new BB, utilize a low shear strength epoxy to take up clearance/increase bonding with carbon shell. Low strength epoxy will allow it get apart without issue for service/BB replacement in the future. When you install the BB, apply bead of epoxy around each cup and immediately install crank and adjust preload. This ensures proper co-axiality of bearing bores for low spindle drag.

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    Using ultegra 6800 with shimano BB.
    The problem is the carbon has worn, brand new BBBhad the same crap fit.
    2 shops have said its a warrenty issue and we are waiting for scotts reply on the matter.
    Personally I dont think I should be having to use epoxy to fix this issue, I have no doubt it would work but I have doubt of how long it would last before working a bit free.
    Hopefully I will hear something in the next week and will figure out which way I go from here. Just sucks not being able to ride as I only have the 1 bike.

  4. #4
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    That sounds like a serious warranty issue.
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    Senior Member dralways's Avatar
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    Please keep us updated as thiis could easily sway a lot of us in future purchases.

    Ill keep my fingers crossed for you.

  6. #6
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Using ultegra 6800 with shimano BB.
    The problem is the carbon has worn, brand new BBBhad the same crap fit.
    2 shops have said its a warrenty issue and we are waiting for scotts reply on the matter.
    Personally I dont think I should be having to use epoxy to fix this issue, I have no doubt it would work but I have doubt of how long it would last before working a bit free.
    Hopefully I will hear something in the next week and will figure out which way I go from here. Just sucks not being able to ride as I only have the 1 bike.
    Depends on how Scott spec's the BB installation. For example, Specialized spec's low shear strength epoxy for the their carbon OSBB aka narrow version of PF30. There is NO difference in interface between a Specialized S-works BB and your Foil...same carbon to delrin bushing connection.

    If Scott spec's Epoxy...they should btw but may not know any better...and your BB was installed without it it, it is NOT a warranty claim because it was installed incorrected and why it wore.

    If Scott spec's dry install, and grease was used to press in the BB, it is NOT a warranty issue.

    A vigilant bike owner or mechanic would have caught this before critical mass.

    If Scott does not warranty your frameset, your ONLY recourse is to use Epoxy.

    There is NOTHING wrong with using Epoxy to secure your now slip fit BB to your Foil frame. Nothing. It is in fact 'preferred' as Specialized the top R&D bike company in the world discovered due to Delrin bushing squirm which WILL induce wear.

    There 'was' nothing wrong with your frame. Wear occurred because there was no adhesive or you may have promoted wear by physically greasing the cups during installation which is a huge mistake and will promote bushing slippage and abrasive carbon wear.
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    Last edited by Campag4life; 06-06-14 at 07:17 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Avispa's Avatar
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    Sad to hear this. I owned a Foil, but changed to a titanium(+ carbon) bike.
    There are too many issues still to carbon it seems. If you are in USofA, perhaps you can call Calfee and ask if they can help you repair this if Scott does not!?

    Hope it solves, waiting is a slow killer..

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    Thanks for your very detailed response campag.
    All work that has been done to my bike is by the bike store I bought it from, I have no idea what im doing so I leave it to professionals. Hopefully they have done their job properly.

  9. #9
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avispa View Post
    Sad to hear this. I owned a Foil, but changed to a titanium(+ carbon) bike.
    There are too many issues still to carbon it seems. If you are in USofA, perhaps you can call Calfee and ask if they can help you repair this if Scott does not!?

    Hope it solves, waiting is a slow killer..
    There are no issues with GOOD carbon. It is a mature material.

    There are issues with cheap carbon, like anything else.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Avispa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    There are no issues with GOOD carbon. It is a mature material.

    There are issues with cheap carbon, like anything else.
    Sure, i never heard that one before.
    Luckily my buddy at work had a 10 year warranty at his. They told him he was the first.
    I think you should ask those who work with repairs and you'll eventually wake up at the other side of the truth.

  11. #11
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avispa View Post
    Sad to hear this. I owned a Foil, but changed to a titanium(+ carbon) bike.
    There are too many issues still to carbon it seems. If you are in USofA, perhaps you can call Calfee and ask if they can help you repair this if Scott does not!?

    Hope it solves, waiting is a slow killer..
    The frame doesn't need to be repaired. There are many slip fit BB's out there. Slip fit is easily resolved with either Loctite or Epoxy.
    Carbon is the greatest thing to ever happen to road bikes and in my experience there are 0 issues with it.

  12. #12
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avispa View Post
    Sure, i never heard that one before.
    Luckily my buddy at work had a 10 year warranty at his. They told him he was the first.
    I think you should ask those who work with repairs and you'll eventually wake up at the other side of the truth.
    I work on them. Carbon is panned only by the ignorant.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Avispa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    The frame doesn't need to be repaired. There are many slip fit BB's out there. Slip fit is easily resolved with either Loctite or Epoxy.
    Carbon is the greatest thing to ever happen to road bikes and in my experience there are 0 issues with it.
    I agree and i know for sure those who repair it does to
    Nothing wrong, but saying it ain't cracking or giving up is BS.
    There are info to find about fail rates.
    As long as you are clear it can happen it is OK.
    You can check this with companies who repair carbon wheels to.
    I won't say it's bad, hell i would also like a carbon (second bike) bike.
    But for one only, i'll keep to titanium or ti and carbon.
    Luckily this needs not be argued about. We all pay our own stuff and is free to pick what we prefer.

  14. #14
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avispa View Post
    Sure, i never heard that one before.
    Luckily my buddy at work had a 10 year warranty at his. They told him he was the first.
    I think you should ask those who work with repairs and you'll eventually wake up at the other side of the truth.
    I design and sell carbon bike parts for a living.

    Everything breaks. This is especially true if you make a few million of them; You're bound to find failures. The issue then become about the rte of failure. Carbon has a good track record here.

    Again, everything breaks at some point.
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  15. #15
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Bummer. Hope you get something figured out about this.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  16. #16
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Thanks for your very detailed response campag.
    All work that has been done to my bike is by the bike store I bought it from, I have no idea what im doing so I leave it to professionals. Hopefully they have done their job properly.
    Hard to fault owners really. Owners buy stuff on faith just like a guy will buy a Porsche and hope his dealer can maintain the car properly.
    In the case of lbs with the changing tech and really integrated BB's in particular, there is wide disparity in talent. I would say there is a pretty high percentage of bike shops that can't properly maintain a PF BB. So tech has moved on and it is better tech but it requires more know how.
    There in lies the rub for many if they are not mechanically inclined and a lot of excellent cyclists who aren't. I know many in fact in my circle of riding friends and I sometimes help them out with their bikes especially when their lbs can't get it right.
    Good luck with your bike. If your local bike shop can't get it right, find a Specialized shop and dig out the epoxy spec which is available on line and have them set it up your BB with Specialzed procedure and you will be good.

    If you want a bit of irony here it is. Those that are loathe to embrace the new world of adhesives to hold things together versus heavier and more corrosion prone mechanical fasteners and believe epoxy of a BB is such a bad thing, couldn't be more mistaken. As it turns out epoxy protects the carbon and forms a natural mold over it and is a perfect complement to the BB bushing it abuts up against. When you knock out a used up Delrin bushing which are sacrificial by design after using Epoxy, you are left with a pristine surface for your new BB and a nice snug fit. Key is to use low strength Epoxy to get it apart easily as BB's don't have to endure high shear forces. Principle forces are vertical during the pedal stroke but that little bit of strength goes a long way to not distorting the Delrin cups and keeping them in place and quiet. I hope that makes sense.
    Last edited by Campag4life; 06-06-14 at 08:01 AM.

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    Once more campag I must thank you again for your very Detailed response, it is very much appreciated.
    Funny thing is the shop I get my work done at is a specialized dealer however I do not have confidence in them anymore after they have continually failed to setup my ultegra 6800 properly. Likewise 2 other local bike shops have left me pissed off with things they have done, one had a very good rep for their service department.
    I finally seem to have found one who knows what he is doing (he picked up the issue) so I will see how things go with him next.
    I will mention your advice to the shop today and ill keep you informed as the any progress we have

  18. #18
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loken View Post
    Once more campag I must thank you again for your very Detailed response, it is very much appreciated.
    Funny thing is the shop I get my work done at is a specialized dealer however I do not have confidence in them anymore after they have continually failed to setup my ultegra 6800 properly. Likewise 2 other local bike shops have left me pissed off with things they have done, one had a very good rep for their service department.
    I finally seem to have found one who knows what he is doing (he picked up the issue) so I will see how things go with him next.
    I will mention your advice to the shop today and ill keep you informed as the any progress we have
    If you can't get a warranty frame replacement loken, pull your bike out of that shop and tell them you won't do business there any more. Take your bike to the best guy you know...sounds like you found such a mechanic....have him purchase a new BB with fresh bearings and have him install it based upon the following specification. Be sure he cleans all surfaces with alcohol and assembles your Ultegra crank and adjusts bearing preload promptly with the Shimano little plastic preload wheel....right after epoxying the BB to your new slightly oversize BB to ensure bearings will share the same centerline for low drag.

    I dug out the specification for you. Print out this spec and take it with you and make sure he uses the Epoxy noted in the spec...or equivalent.
    Good luck. Please come back and tell us how it turns out.

    http://static.specialized.com/media/...G0414_revC.pdf

  19. #19
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    i was surprised when my integrated headset bearings just dropped into the reamed but raw carbon headtube on my recently purchased carbon frame. thought it wouldn't last, but has... so far.

    anyway i'm shocked they are using the same technique on the BB. i assumed the new large spindle, press fit BB bearings (a a la threadless headsets) were pressed into an alloy insert, considering the forces at play. wow!

  20. #20
    Junior Member Bujajuja's Avatar
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    What response are you receiving from Scott?

  21. #21
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
    i was surprised when my integrated headset bearings just dropped into the reamed but raw carbon headtube on my recently purchased carbon frame. thought it wouldn't last, but has... so far.

    anyway i'm shocked they are using the same technique on the BB. i assumed the new large spindle, press fit BB bearings (a a la threadless headsets) were pressed into an alloy insert, considering the forces at play. wow!
    huey....not how it works with a Foil or one of the many Press Fit 30 BB's on the market. A 46mm ID virgin carbon hole comprises the carbon shell.
    46mm OD and 42mm ID Delrin (acetyl plastic) bushings are pressed into (sometimes epoxied) into the carbon shell. Basically what you have now is a composite of carbon and hard plastic...hard plastic bushing protect the carbon and when they wear out are replaced as other types of bushings are. 30 mm ID bearings are pressed into the Delrin bushings. Now you can run a 30mm spindle crank or a 24mm spindle diameter as in the case of Shimano with spacers. Also there are smaller diameter press fit BB's on the market that directly bolt to Shimano's 24mm crank....a huge array of different Press Fit BB's now on the market...some with 90mm shell width and others with 68 or even narrower shell width like Specialized carbon OSBB which measures 61mm without press fit bushings in place.

    PS: if what you write is true...would love to see a picture and have you tell us what frame you have where the bearings are resting right inside the carbon head tube and not sleeved for wear resistance...and I have no reason to doubt you, I can comment on why you will never see bearings resting right inside a carbon BB shell without either plastic or metal bushings to protect the carbon. Although there are many analogies between a head tube and BB...on most carbon race bikes now, both are integrated...the principle difference is load path and stresses....they are completely the opposite.
    In the case of a head tube, stresses are axial, i.e. the bearings are in compression and along the centerline of steerer tube. This is hugely friendly to any radial bearing stress which is proportional to the cosine of the HTA and relatively small compared to principle forces due to weight of rider + bike. By contrast the force on a BB are 90 degrees or opposing this directon...most stress it radial or parallel to the bearings seats. This completely changes the bearing stresses and the needed environment to support the bearings. There is a much greater lateral component of stress to the BB than there is compared to lateral stress on a headset where the bearings are subject mostly to compressive forces. So a BB has to have a more rigorous bearing system to support the magnitude and direction of the stresses upon it.
    Last edited by Campag4life; 06-07-14 at 10:33 AM.

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    Well I dropped into the shop yesterday, mostly to drop off my wheels for my bike and they said the scott rep was looking into a new frame. Not getting any hopes up though

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    huey....not how it works with a Foil or one of the many Press Fit 30 BB's on the market. A 46mm ID virgin carbon hole comprises the carbon shell.
    46mm OD and 42mm ID Delrin (acetyl plastic) bushings are pressed into (sometimes epoxied) into the carbon shell. Basically what you have now is a composite of carbon and hard plastic...hard plastic bushing protect the carbon and when they wear out are replaced as other types of bushings are. 30 mm ID bearings are pressed into the Delrin bushings. Now you can run a 30mm spindle crank or a 24mm spindle diameter as in the case of Shimano with spacers. Also there are smaller diameter press fit BB's on the market that directly bolt to Shimano's 24mm crank....a huge array of different Press Fit BB's now on the market...some with 90mm shell width and others with 68 or even narrower shell width like Specialized carbon OSBB which measures 61mm without press fit bushings in place.

    PS: if what you write is true...would love to see a picture and have you tell us what frame you have where the bearings are resting right inside the carbon head tube and not sleeved for wear resistance...and I have no reason to doubt you, I can comment on why you will never see bearings resting right inside a carbon BB shell without either plastic or metal bushings to protect the carbon. Although there are many analogies between a head tube and BB...on most carbon race bikes now, both are integrated...the principle difference is load path and stresses....they are completely the opposite.
    In the case of a head tube, stresses are axial, i.e. the bearings are in compression and along the centerline of steerer tube. This is hugely friendly to any radial bearing stress which is proportional to the cosine of the HTA and relatively small compared to principle forces due to weight of rider + bike. By contrast the force on a BB are 90 degrees or opposing this directon...most stress it radial or parallel to the bearings seats. This completely changes the bearing stresses and the needed environment to support the bearings. There is a much greater lateral component of stress to the BB than there is compared to lateral stress on a headset where the bearings are subject mostly to compressive forces. So a BB has to have a more rigorous bearing system to support the magnitude and direction of the stresses upon it.
    agreed.

    i've been researching BB's the last two days for a project i'm working on. and as you noted and subsequent to my post, i've found that any raw carbon BB shell that is press fit employs a plastic encased BB bearing cup (i.e. BB86 and BB91). the BB30 and and PF30 use, IIRC, an alloy insert in a carbon BB shell.

    anyway, i am quite sure my headtube has no metal insert. the raw carbon has been cleanly reamed out. and the angled cartridge bearings are in there loose enough to fall out on their own if the fork is removed. but, as you mentioned, the forces are primarily compressive, so i'm not too worried. probably have about 4000 miles on it. so far so good.

  24. #24
    Senior Member fstshrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    There are no issues with GOOD carbon. It is a mature material.

    There are issues with cheap carbon, like anything else.
    The issue is not with carbon. It is with the BB30/PF30/.... non threaded bottom brackets. One of my co-workers at work had to get a Jamis Xenith warranteed because of the exact some problem as this OP. Frame wore off around the bottom bracket. @Campag4life is right, there is a proper way to install these BBs but for some reason I see a lot of creaking, failing BBs around where I live.
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  25. #25
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fstshrk View Post
    The issue is not with carbon. It is with the BB30/PF30/.... non threaded bottom brackets. One of my co-workers at work had to get a Jamis Xenith warranteed because of the exact some problem as this OP. Frame wore off around the bottom bracket. @Campag4life is right, there is a proper way to install these BBs but for some reason I see a lot of creaking, failing BBs around where I live.
    When BB30 first went mainstream there was a lot of resistance from frame factories as it pushed the tolerances onto them. With BSA they could make the frame with the cups bonded in and then machine the threads in perfect alignment. With BB30 the placement in the mold had to be spot on and the amount of work that both could be done and was needed to be done was problematic.

    I think PF30 is a step in the right direction but there are still production issue that didn't exist with BSA. The problem here is that these issues don't become apparent until after the bike is built and ridden.

    Most issue are caught during production but, as with anything manufacturered, there will always be a small percent that fail I the field.
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