UnfilteredDregs

I don't think anyone here is advocating ankling...but there is quite a difference in the motion of my foot when I actually conciously think of relaxing versus not thinking about it. I find myself heel up/toe down when I allow tension to creep in.

Carbonfiberboy 

I mean the structure in the back of a cycling shoe that "cups" the heel and prevents the heel from pulling out. I try to push and pull against that structure rather than the sole of the shoe over the spindle.

Moving the cleats aft is usually done by folks who experience "hot foot" on long rides.

Brian Ratliff

A good way of giving yourself injuries, in my experience. The best pedal stroke is a hard downstroke, through the ball of your foot, like you are mashing, and then relax on the upstroke. All this nonsense about "full circle" pedaling is just that, nonsense. The leg is simply not made for pulling. Every muscle, every supporting tendon and ligament, bone and joint is designed to apply pushing force through the ball of the foot.

This is just wrong. Cleats a bit behind the ball of the foot bias towards high force transfer and negatively impact rpm. Cleats forward is the opposite. Hot foot is caused by an ill-fitting shoe combined with heat.

UnfilteredDregs

So what's your take on the whole "dragging your foot back through mud..." concept on the back and up end of the pedalstroke?

Brian Ratliff

The key is you want to be smooth. Not "round" in the sense you are putting torque on the pedals all the way around the pedal arc, but smooth, as in, not a jerky transition between power stroke and recovery. If thinking of "dragging your foot through mud" helps you as a physiological cue to give you a smoother pedal stroke, then by all means. The problem comes when people start really emphasising the motion. That's when you start getting problems with the tendons at the back of your knees and your achilles. Unless you are under very heavy torque (low rpm, high force, like when standing), "pulling" is of no great benefit. Better to straighten/stiffen your lower back and use your hammies on the downstroke to augment your quads and stabilize your knee.

FWIW, I used to believe heavily in "pulling" on the pedals. That is, until I tried it for a season and had problems with the tendons at the back of my knee. Then I started lifting (squats and deadlifts) and found it was much more useful to use your hamstrings (with the glutes) as a hip extensor (extending your leg on the downstroke) than as a knee flexor (the muscle group crosses and can operate both the knee and hip joints). Thinking it through, your legs are not at all meant for pulling. We don't have opposable big toes and all our muscles and joints are dedicated to push motions. Pulling the pedal up through the back stroke will only lead to injury in the long term.

Brian Ratliff

Also, when thinking of LeMond, consider that his early formative years were spent in toeclips and straps. The advice to "scrap your shoe of mud" and "try to push your knees into your handlebars" are simply cues to smooth out the transition between power phase and recovery phase of the pedal stroke. With straps, on a long ride, you aren't going to be pulling (the straps are loosened and you'll pull your feet out), so it is unlikely his advice extends to putting power into the pedals on the upstroke.

Ago Velox

So, what is the optimum cleat position in relation to the ball of the foot?


AGO

Brian Ratliff

Start with the cleat position that will put the pedal axle under the ball of the foot. Then experiment to your taste. There is no "optimum" because everyone has different bodies and styles.

Fiery

Light pull up is very beneficial. You don't actually pull on the pedal, you just lift the leg and unweight the pedal, thus letting more of the force from the opposite leg go into the drive train. Legs are quite well adapted to lifting their own weight. This has been measured in a lab too; nobody produces positive force on the upstroke, but experienced cyclists (I think they used some pros in testing) produced less negative force.

I actually pedal "full circle" even when using flat pedals - of course you don't apply any useful force to the pedals outside the downstroke when doing this, but you make your legs actively move in circles instead of being letting the pedals move them. Of course, with experience, you do this without thinking about it, but it is something that needs to be learned and trained.

Ago Velox

i recently read information on a website showing the "triangle" or "Arc" of movement throughout the pedal stroke - and showing how our stroke should mimic this triangle... your thoughts?

also, i recently observed my knees sort of bowing outwards at TDC of my pedal stroke - is this normal and part of the natural circular motion throughout the pedal stroke?

Ago

ActuatedLeaden

+1 to this, when I tried the "pulling" method I stuck with it thinking that my form/power was somehow improving. After a few hundred miles of doing this I blew out the Achilles in my heal. Very painful lesson :-)

Sixty Fiver

If we are not talking about a saddle position that is too high or too low, there is a small range of angles that one will see with riders and I prefer to come through the bottom of the pedal stroke with a fairly flat foot or a slight raise in my heel. A small heel push on climbs can help recruit different muscles but this is light pressure and should not be confused with ankling and with the right set up just flattens the foot through the bottom of the pedal stroke.

Placing the cleat a little behind the ball of the foot has been shown to improve efficiency through a great deal of testing... one might note that many newer shoes allow for cleat placements that are farther back than they were a decade ago.

Set things up too low and you can't get proper leg extension and setting things up too high and dancing on your toes recruits the calf muscles more which is very inefficient.

Developing a smooth spin and continuous power is key and making the most efficient use of those muscles under changing conditions will make one a better cyclist.

Pulling up on the non driving pedal and crank is a recipe for injury and is not efficient.

Brian Ratliff

Never heard of the triangle thing; probably should provide a picture or link.

As for your knees, the most common advice is to have your knees brush your top tube at top dead center. They probably shouldn't be bowing outwards at any point. During the power phase of the stroke, your knees should be moving in plane with the pedals. Anything else and you risk knee injury.

Carbonfiberboy 

Never had an injury. Been pedaling like this for a long time. At 69, I think I am unlikely to suffer in the long term, having not done so to date. I don't think you understand what is being advocated.

I ride with my cleats positioned so that the pedal axle is about 1.5 cm behind my metatarsal joint, but there are many who advocate a further back cleat position, even all the way back to the instep. Lon Haldeman is famous for moving riders' cleats back on PAC Tours:

Lon's PACTOUR Blog: No Shoe Pain
"Hot foot" isn't really a hot foot. It's a burning sensation. Massaging a rider's foot will set it right for a while. Haldeman claims moving the cleats fixes it.

Joe Friel is another convert:
Joe Friel's Blog: Cleat position

Every step walking or running involves a pulling motion. It's very noticeable hiking or mountaineering if one hasn't done much of it for a while. I believe our lower extremities are developed to allow these sort of motions or people wouldn't be able to walk or run. Pulling during a pedal stroke involves unweighting or mostly unweighting the up pedal, but pulling back at the bottom of the stroke is also definitely pulling. I have experimented with allowing the knee to snap back into line at the bottom of the pedal stroke while pulling back, but the glutes load up fairly quickly and no advantage is gained over allowing the hamstring to flex and bring the foot back.

I think it should be pointed out that any change in pedaling motion is unlikely to result in immediate benefit. Most people will find that a change in pedaling motion, whatever it is, will make the bike more difficult to pedal. There is usually a period of neuromuscular adaptation before the new motion feels as good or better than what went before. OTOH, that is what is so startling about the claims for moving the cleats back to the tarsometatarsal joint.

Steve Hogg is perhaps the best known proponent of this latter cleat mounting position:
POWER TO THE PEDAL ? CLEAT POSITION » Bike Fit » Feet » Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website

Brian Ratliff

^^^
Everyone's different... but applying significant amounts of force on the upstroke will result in injury.

Also, the cleat thing... these people are worried primarily about a very narrow type of cycling done by ultra long distancers, touring cyclists and long distance (ironman or half-ironman) triathletes -- long, solo, relatively slow, obsessed with straightline efficiency and comfort, and not sport-like (no attacking, sprinting, or maneuvering in tight groups). To everyone else, the body is made to balance on the balls of the feet; it's why we have toes and why they are shaped and located as they are. Friel is wrong when he says he can find no evidence to support the ball-of-the-foot location. Yes, you can probably press on the pedals with more force from a mid-foot cleat position, just as you deadlift or squat with your weight centered on your foot; forces a bit more hamstring action on the downstroke. But when you go to stand or if you need to maneuver by shifting your bodyweight, you lose control if your weight is not supported on the balls of your feet.

Finally, the hot foot thing... read the last three paragraphs of Lon's blog post. Shoe fit combined with swelling feet is the main factor; feet swell in hot weather, especially at altitude. Hence my comment.

Garfield Cat

Now add the Q Rings or O Symetric rings into the mix and what do you get with the pedal stroke?

Carbonfiberboy 

Yes, I find my cleat placement totally satisfactory. I might consider trying them further back in the slots, but I think you're right about maneuvering. Dancing on the pedals is fun. However, I've never met anyone who moved their cleats back and then went back to their previous positioning.

Well, maybe it is swelling then. I've only had a bad feet once, doing a pass climb in 100°+, but thought it was that my socks were too thin - needed more padding. I don't wear thin socks on long rides anymore. I've given foot massages that were very well received, but maybe that's still swelling which results in the nerve pressure and the burning sensation. Never had it, myself. Be that as it may, Haldeman reports that moving cleats back fixes it.

Agree about not pulling up. While I do OLP for leg strength before climbing season, I don't advocate it for folks who are trying to fix their pedal stroke, liking high RPM training better for that. However, unweighting is of proven benefit.

As far as simple mashing vs. circles is concerned, this article may be of interest:
INFLUENCE OF PEDALING TECHNIQUE ON METABOLIC EFFICIENCY IN ELITE CYCLISTS
Full text PDF download here:
biolsport.com/fulltxt.php?ICID=1003448

I am aware of asgelle's frequent posts of pedal force curves, but those are from quite a different investigation.

- - - "constant torque on the bottom bracket" has nothing to do with pulling up, it has to do with the exact distribution of force applied to both pedals during their power phases. A few minutes on your rollers will make what I'm talking about very clear. I think most folks actually do this, though they may not think about it in those words, or perhaps think about it at all.

Wiggle

I've always preferred to drop my toes for a significant portion of my pedal stroke. I also position my cleat slightly behind the ball of my foot. Not saying either of these are better but for me I found it is the most comfortable way to pedal.

Homebrew01

When sprinting and grunting up very steep climbs, actually pulling up will add extra power, but that is very short term. I also do it now and then when spinning up a climb for a bit of extra power, but a very small % of total ride time.

coasting 

no such thing as the right way to pedal just like no right way to walk. some people have feet pointing in others pointing out. etc