hueyhoolihan

after one bad experience with sew-ups back in the early 80's i've steered clear of tubulars for about 32 years, until my most recent build. figured, with all things considered, not just the tires and rims, i could save almost two pounds, i decided to give them another try. after all, i'm retired and have the time. but after trying to decide whether to go glue or tape, and watching a few videos of guys dressed in their favorite smocks, ensconced in their man-caves, tediously painting the tires with their favorite brushes, taking a half-hour to do it, then hanging it up on a hook behind them and saying, with a straight face, directly into the camera, "that'll do for now, i'll let it dry for a day, then i'll put another coat on it tomorrow. and then maybe a third, the day after."

that was it! i like to ride my bike, not hang out in my garage, avoiding the wife and family, for days on end, painting tires. so it'll be tape for me!

and BTW, concerning rolling resistance. how and who in god's name is measuring the thickness of two-sided sticky tape? come on, i'm insulted...

i understand guys that enjoy time-consuming hobbies, i get it. like those that build scale model ships in bottles. the thing is that they don't claim, AFAIK, the the end product, i.e. the ship, is in any way superior to those that are built bottle-less.

hueyhoolihan

Zinn's a boob, everybody knows that. in addition, the statement should read "... since the thickness of glue is greater and the tape in the middle also contributes a hysterical loss.".

2000Para853red

I use the tufo tape now....it is quick and easy to use ..... I've never had any problems with it.

BoSoxYacht

he stated something to be factual, and I asked for proof. I did not contradict him.

kleng

Tufo tape is easier, and you probably won't even feel the difference in rolling resistance.
The choice of a good tubular is what you should be asking ?, my answer to that is the Veloflex Extreme if you have the budget, if not the Tufo Elite Jet <160g for the pure weight savings at the rim

Fox Farm

more rolling resistance if I use my Tufo tape vs Conti glue? I read that link and it seems like 4.5 seconds over a time trial course? I would say that tire inflation will have a more noticeable impact on resistance. So, 4.5 seconds for tape vs 24 hours to cure the glue? Hum.... I'll stick (sorry) with my tape.

asgelle

Can you explain how the use of tape vs. glue affects inflation pressure? I fail to see how using one or the other would prevent you from using the optimal pressure.

Avispa

Use Tufo, i did it and do it. It works great and i never sunday ride or if you like, i ride like an idiot at times. Just use tires that are similar to Tufo or Tufo tires and it works.
It doesn't have to be harder than that!

I <3 Robots

I remember watching the ZIPP video on how to glue a tubular tire. IIRC...according to the video...it took something like 4 days from applying glue to being able to ride it.

I do all my gluing in one session. Wait 24 hours...ride.

Fox Farm

I was not saying that tape v glue affects tire inflation pressure. I was saying that adjusting tire inflation will affect rolling resistance likely to a greater degree.

asgelle

O.K. I'll spell it out. The two are independent. Whatever penalty I suffer by using tape over glue can not be corrected by changing tire pressure. If I'm using a less than optimal tire pressure, I can reduce rolling resistance by inflating to a better pressure, but I will always be slower at whatever pressure I run if I use tape rather than glue.

carpediemracing 

The tire appears clean, which implies that either there is no glue, the glue didn't stick (because it stuck to, say, a layer of latex on the tire), the rider used tape and that unstuck, or the base tape rolled off the tire.

If you are using tubulars it benefits you to check the tire before you ride it. You're the first person that will get hurt if a tire rolls, just like if a front clincher blows off the rim.

The bold is NOT CORRECT. A properly glued tired will not roll, even with zero psi in it.

Tire pressure is never enough to keep a tubular on a rim if you're cornering hard.

The glue is one of the main safety features of a tubular, along with the tubular/non-bead construction of the tire itself. If you have sudden pressure loss (cut sidewall, massive pothole, nail/screw/sharp-thing, etc), you can still ride the tire. In fact you can stay upright even if you experience sudden pressure loss while heeled over in a turn. The casing/tread slides a bit until the sidewall catches, maybe an inch or so, but then you have pretty good traction. I've had a teammate blow a tire mid turn in a race just as he bridged to a break. He was probably going 30 mph, heeled way over, flatted, and stayed upright. He's not a super duper bike handler, he doesn't go and do cross or bumping drills or anything, but his normal cornering posture was enough to keep him upright.

He happened to be using my wheels, my tires. I glued the tires. It probably took 15-20 minutes to remove the zero psi tire, which is about what it takes to remove a well glued tire.

The last sentence, though, is dead on accurate. Rolling a tire due to improper mounting is inexcusable. A base tape, sort of excusable, since it's the tire that failed. I only know one brand where I've seen multiple tires roll their base tape. A couple I saw in person, including rolling one of my own brand new tires after gluing it on a rim and checking it, one I saw on TV (Lance, when he crashed at 40 mph in that last Tour, rolled a base tape). Same brand.

My favorite clip of a flat tubular:

carpediemracing 

One more thought. Note how the tire is turned sort of inside out? This indicates the tire has pressure it in. A deflated tire won't turn inside out very easily. The "inside out" also indicates it's a nicer tire, not one of the "cut a section of cotton tubing and sew the ends together" less expensive type of tire.

Bad tubulars are really bad and I'd rather ride clinchers than a cheap tubular. They're not round, they want to fold flat because they're made from a cylinder of casing with the ends sewn together. Better tires, typically retailing for $90 or more, are made with casings that are actually hoop shaped. They will turn inside out with no bends or creases. The cheaper tires try to straighten out before they turn inside out, and you end up, at some point, with a tire that has a pointy crease in it.

Also cheap tubulars have a vulcanized tread. It means the tread is partially melted onto the casing. The problem is that when the casing stretches so does the rubber. You end up with a bunch of very fine cracks in the tread, encouraging water damage to the casing, attracting debris into the tread, etc, resulting in more frequent punctures and possibly damaged tire casings. A better tire, with the round casing, has the tread glued on when it's inflated. This means that when you inflate the tire the tread is now "normal". No cracks until the tread actually ages so much it cracks. Casing is protected by the tread (the sidewalls have a latex coating but not the tread, so you rely on the tread to protect the casing). You can tell if you have glued tread when the tire is deflated because the sidewalls will be creased a bit. The casing has shrunk with no pressure but the tread still holds the inflated "size". This makes it virtually impossible to neatly fold the tire, a sign that you're dealing with a hand made tire. With a vulcanized tire the tread and casing are smooth (and typically folded nicely).

carpediemracing 

Picking a tubular tire.

Rolling a tubular.

Gluing a tubular

Removing a tubular

Ultegra134

Hello, thanks a lot for your responses.I had seen that Zipp video too saying "Apply a layer of glue blablabla and it took 3-4 days"I saw another one and the next or the following day you were ready to go.I will probably going to use Glue.Any tire and glue recommendations?I'd like a tire that it will be able to handle many kilometers (About 5000-6000?)I've seen Tufo S33 which seems pretty good.

I <3 Robots

I use whatever is available at my lbs when I go to pick it up. Typically the Continental stuff.

I run the Continental Sprinter Gatorskin tire. Its a durable tire that gives a decent ride. You'll get good life out of them...but mounting them (for me) was a pain in the ass...even after pre stretching for a week.

The easiest tire for me to mount was the Vittoria Corsa Evo (pricey)...once pre stretched...it goes on real easy. That is a thin tire though...and I can't get more than a few hundred miles before it punctures or gets cut up...but it sure does ride nice.

Just double check the glue on the tire for bare spots before you mount. I've noticed that on the Continentals the base tape soaks up more glue than the Vittorias did.

kleng

Also with glue, thinner but more layers is better than putting it on really thick, also avoid gumming up the spoke holes.
For the marginal increase in RR, I'd say a 5-10 minute tape job is easier, it's also cleaner after removing the tire as it's easier to peel off the rim.
With glue you have use some sort of solvent which makes a sticky mess.

FBinNY 

Tubulars seem to have been taken over by the anal "do it just so or risk dying" crowd.

How did we all survive before we had the benefit of this explicit advice? For decades we rode tubulars, mounting them with gum mastic, and switching out flats on the road, dry mounting them onto our tacky rims and riding immediately. If you look at photos of old time racers like Fausto Coppi, you'll see them carrying spare tires on their shoulders. Does anybody seriously believe they struggled and sat around for 20 minutes or waited overnight for the glue to dry?

The advent of support vehicles has changed the game in pro racing, and many pro mechanics now glue tires as they might for the track. But that doesn't make it necessary. Decent glue or tape with good long term tack properties both do a great job keeping tires secure, and allow field changes within minutes. If this weren't so, tubulars wouldn't be worth the bother.

If you want to glue tires so they can't come off, or so they pull from the base tape when you try to remove them, that's your privilege, but if you're riding with me, don't expect me to wait around more than a few minutes if/when you flat.

(been riding tubulars, since 1967 with many 10s of thousands trouble free miles (flats don't count)

I <3 Robots

Is there a better method? I need to pull one of my tires off today. I usually do one coat on the rim and one on the tire. Let dry and another coat to mount...is that overkill then?

Since I already have glue on the tire and rim...should I just do one coat and mount right away?

FBinNY 

Your method has to be consistent with the glue you use. I use old fashioned gum mastics which have a high ratio of solids to solvents, and leave a base that stays tacky for months,. If/when necessary, I can refresh the tack with a very thin coat, or even with a rag dampened with gasoline (emergency gas station option).

Many other glues leave only a thin coat and dry to where there's no tack, so a proper new coat will be needed. As to how long to wait, that too depends on the glue. The old stuff sets up and becomes very stringy within minutes (learn to seat tires quickly) and can be ridden immediately, though I ride gingerly for half an hour or so.

As said, I very rarely apply glue in the field, usually only on multi-week tours where I've had flats, and was unhappy with the amount of tack left. Then I'll mount dry on the road, followed by remounting with fresh glue that evening. Otherwise I don't ever carry glue with me on the road.

BTW- it's been ages since I put away a stock of reliable glue and I haven't shopped for it in years. If they still make it, the Continental stuff in a yellow can, that's stringy like shoemakers glue is excellent, and similar to the old Italian stuff I'm still using.

big chainring 

More glue the better is a common misconception. Whatever brand you choose you will find its very sticky nasty stuff. Trust the glue. And you do want the tire to come off eventually.

I've been cycling 40 yrs. and have ridden a lot of tubulars. It wasnt until I found BF's that I heard about applying glue to the tire. I just run a bead down the middle of the rim. Thats it. I've also noticed I corner more aggressively than most. I've never rolled a tire.

asgelle

Perhaps, but tests have shown that to get rolling resistance of tubulars down to near what you can get with clinchers takes about one tube per wheel. I doubt anyone is using more than that.
How about trust the glue manufacturer? For at least the last 30 years, Vittoria has recommended at least two coats on the rim and one on the tire.

Anecdotes are fine, data is better. It's good you've never had a tire roll or a serious problem, but in studies commissioned by USCF (now USAC), it was found that multiple coats on the rim and tire gave a stronger bond than a single one even if the same amount of glue had been used. Similarly, rolling resistance tests have shown a decrease in rolling resistance up to the recommended multi-coat, one tube per tire level. My question is, in light of this data, why would someone choose to run tubulars with a less secure bond and higher rolling resistance than possible?

big chainring 

I'll stick with my data of 40 years and no tires rolled. And really I cant even remember anyone rolling a tire in competition or anywhere. I remember guys taken off the starting line for unglued tires.

Higher rolling resistance? I'll have to suffer with that.

hueyhoolihan

i believe that!

Ultegra134

Hello, Thanks a lot for spending time to answer my questions.I appreciate it.I've found these Tufo s33 tires which seem good at a reasonable price.
S33 Pro 28 x 21 mm Tubular black | Road Race Tyres
What's your opinion about them?Any other tire suggestions?