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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

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Old 07-16-14, 08:42 AM   #1
DaveLeeNC
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Tubular Mounting Question

I am considering a serious groupset upgrade to my bike that would involve a hub change (coming off 8sp Campy). So a wheel upgrade at the same time is an option. So now is the time to reconsider tubulars (currently riding conventional clinchers).

There are a ton of threads about the differences so I'm not asking this to be rehashed. But I do have a question regarding installing tubulars. I have seen youtube instructions regarding tubular installation. I at least understand the process and principles. What I don't get is why 3 days from start to finish is acceptable (2 overnight waits for glue to dry). If this is how it must be done I would think that someone out there would be selling a more efficient product (that is better than tape - or maybe I am wrong about the effectiveness of tape). So I see the following possible explanations.

1) You really don't have to wait for two separate 24 hour drying periods. From my view a single overnight drying is acceptable.

2) Folks are only racing on tubulars so it isn't that big a deal

3) Tubular folks always have multiple wheelsets, so it isn't that big a deal

4) With the hopefully reducing flatting (at least no pinch flats) it isn't that big a deal

5) I'm just an impatient SOB. I build my own golf clubs and use a 24 hour epoxy, even though faster epoxies are available. But I just wouldn't use anything that couldn't be finished overnight.

Although some marginal improvement in performance would be nice, better riding characteristics (comfort and handling) are my primary goals. Ideally I would like to try out some tubular wheels, but it isn't like tubulars with 8sp Campy compatible hubs are just laying around everywhere. But again my bigger issue (and question in this thread) is just the installation process.

Thanks.

dave

Last edited by DaveLeeNC; 07-16-14 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 07-16-14, 09:14 AM   #2
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You should look into road tubeless. You can get many of the advantages of a tubular wheel, such as lower pressures, no pinch flat and lower rolling resistance without the hassle of gluing.
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Old 07-16-14, 09:44 AM   #3
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2 seperate coats and 24 hours of drying between coats is a bit of overkill, particularly if you're gluing onto a rim that already has had a tire glued to it.

One coat on rim, one coat on tire; allow to dry, another coat on rim, allow to get tacky, install, inflate, and wait 24 hours is sufficient.

And if you only have one set of wheels, you probably don't want that one set to be tubulars.
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Old 07-16-14, 09:46 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
What I don't get is why 3 days from start to finish is acceptable (2 overnight waits for glue to dry).
You're watching the wrong videos.

I have raced tubulars for 30 years. It takes me 15 minutes to glue them, and I ride them the next day.
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Old 07-16-14, 10:06 AM   #5
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I have raced tubulars for 30 years. It takes me 15 minutes to glue them, and I ride them the next day.
This.

I'll say 30-60 minutes for the first time tubular gluing person for the glue job. I'll ride them 12-24 hours later. In other words no midnight glue job for a 6 AM race, but an afternoon glue job for a race the next afternoon.
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Old 07-16-14, 11:26 AM   #6
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2 seperate coats and 24 hours of drying between coats is a bit of overkill, particularly if you're gluing onto a rim that already has had a tire glued to it.

One coat on rim, one coat on tire; allow to dry, another coat on rim, allow to get tacky, install, inflate, and wait 24 hours is sufficient.

And if you only have one set of wheels, you probably don't want that one set to be tubulars.
However, unless the 'allow to dry' first step is relatively short this is still a 2 night process. But maybe your intended 'allow to dry' is only a few hours - that right?

Thx.

dave
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Old 07-16-14, 11:46 AM   #7
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However, unless the 'allow to dry' first step is relatively short this is still a 2 night process. But maybe your intended 'allow to dry' is only a few hours - that right?

Thx.

dave
Yes. 30-60 minutes is fine.

You do need to give them the 12-24 hours that CDR references after you mount them.
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Old 07-16-14, 12:59 PM   #8
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Here's an article on gluing tubular tires.

http://cnl.salk.edu/~jorge/xfer/Tubu...icePart1-4.pdf
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Old 07-16-14, 02:24 PM   #9
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I do all my gluing in one sitting. I wait typically 30-40 mins for the glue to set...or become not so tacky to the touch...then I'll put on the next coat.

On a new tire...I'll typically do two coats (let coat one sit for 30 mins). A one coat on the rim. Let those two sit for about 30 mins...then I'll put a coat on the rim and mount right away. I'll let the wheel sit overnight and ride the next day.

I tried ZIPP's method...and I could not pull the tire off. All those layers of glue made it almost impossible for me to pull off.

I once did a glue and ride rush job in three hours...I was pretty careful on the ride. I checked a couple times during the ride...tire seemed fine to me...but I don't think it's something I'll do again.
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Old 07-16-14, 03:12 PM   #10
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Look at the Tufo site on how to use their tape. I've used both tape and glue and for the past 10 years, tape only.
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Old 07-16-14, 03:54 PM   #11
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Tubular Mounting Question

3m Fastack 8031. Big tube at the auto parts store is $12. Glue and go. I have been using this stuff since the '70's. I usually wait over night but its rideable in an hour. Last time I put tires on, maybe 5 minutes per wheel to glue and mount the tire. It's pretty darn simple.
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Old 07-16-14, 03:56 PM   #12
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Look at the Tufo site on how to use their tape. I've used both tape and glue and for the past 10 years, tape only.
That is very interesting. It is also interesting to note that their listed distributorship is somewhat limited (only Europe, just one in the UK, etc). But still interesting. And I wonder if this tape really is limited to use with their tires (as is implied by their instructions).

dave
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Old 07-17-14, 12:57 AM   #13
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That is very interesting. It is also interesting to note that their listed distributorship is somewhat limited (only Europe, just one in the UK, etc). But still interesting. And I wonder if this tape really is limited to use with their tires (as is implied by their instructions).

dave
Did you look at this list on their web site? Dealer Page
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Old 07-17-14, 01:08 AM   #14
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I do all my gluing in one sitting. I wait typically 30-40 mins for the glue to set...or become not so tacky to the touch...then I'll put on the next coat.

I tried ZIPP's method...and I could not pull the tire off. All those layers of glue made it almost impossible for me to pull off.

I once did a glue and ride rush job in three hours...I was pretty careful on the ride. I checked a couple times during the ride...tire seemed fine to me...but I don't think it's something I'll do again.
yeah, a tire pumped to 100 psi is pretty tough to pull off the rim without any glue, so the glue is a bonus! today I got a flat and road back with the spare. kept the speed to 30 mph or less. to really check a glue job, you have to let the air out of the tire and then pull.
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Old 07-17-14, 02:00 AM   #15
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That is very interesting. It is also interesting to note that their listed distributorship is somewhat limited (only Europe, just one in the UK, etc). But still interesting. And I wonder if this tape really is limited to use with their tires (as is implied by their instructions).

dave
I've used tufo tape with Continental Competitions, Veloflex Extremes, Schwalbe Ultremo HT and Tufo Elite Jet <160 tubulars with no problems.
I'd say it's more difficult to remove the tubular using tape, the adhesion is very strong.
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Old 07-17-14, 03:30 AM   #16
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I've used tufo tape with Continental Competitions, Veloflex Extremes, Schwalbe Ultremo HT and Tufo Elite Jet <160 tubulars with no problems.
I'd say it's more difficult to remove the tubular using tape, the adhesion is very strong.
i'll be looking for some weak tape.
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Old 07-17-14, 05:28 AM   #17
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i'll be looking for some weak tape.
You'll make it. Tufo has now released a liquid helping you to get glue resido off the rim (i have bought this, but not used it yet!)
Vittorias cotton tires work great with TUFO tape also. Do it, you won't regret it!
It's not that difficult really....
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Old 07-17-14, 05:43 AM   #18
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Did you look at this list on their web site? Dealer Page
I have been having some browser issues. I was looking at their 'Distributor Page' and only Europe worked (a problem on my end, it seems). But I tried that again today and clearly they are well established and world wide - thanks.

From reading some reviews it sounds like the useability of this tape on non-Tufo tires depends on the materials in the seams area of the tires. So there probably are some usable choices here.

dave

ps. A related question. I just did an hour or so of reading last night. One flatting approach commonly used is to fold up a glued tubular and carry it when riding (the assumption being that there will be enough glue left on the rim to mount, temporarily, a new tubular). If I understand how all this stuff works, once dried this glue acts like 'contact cement' in that it sticks to very little but itself. How do you fold up a spare tire such that two glued sections never touch? Do you wrap it or something? It was also interesting to observe that the extra weight of a 3rd tire (vs. a 3rd tube) at least partially negates the small weight savings of a tubular over clincher.
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Old 07-17-14, 09:56 AM   #19
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...5) I'm just an impatient SOB. I build my own golf clubs and use a 24 hour epoxy, even though faster epoxies are available. But I just wouldn't use anything that couldn't be finished overnight.


Thanks.

dave
FWIW, I have a tube of the conti glue for carbon rims. The instructions state one coat on rim and one coat on tire, wait 12 hours. Then one coat on tire, then put tire on rim immediately, wait 24 hours to ride.
http://www.conti-online.com/www/down...mcement_en.pdf

So that 36 hours and 10 minutes.

Other instructions I have seen call for multiple coats and more waiting. The local bike shop advised 72hour wait after gluing before riding, to make the lawyers happy.

I have also heard that if you flat, if your spare is glued you can stick it on the rim and get home just fine.
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Old 07-17-14, 10:01 AM   #20
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...How do you fold up a spare tire such that two glued sections never touch? Do you wrap it or something? It was also interesting to observe that the extra weight of a 3rd tire (vs. a 3rd tube) at least partially negates the small weight savings of a tubular over clincher.
folding:
Folding a Tubular Tire by Jobst Brandt
Ask Nick: Why you shouldn't take cues from the pros on position - VeloNews.com

You save weight on the rims, which is rotating weight. That matters more then the weight of a spare.
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Old 07-17-14, 01:07 PM   #21
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folding:
Folding a Tubular Tire by Jobst Brandt
Ask Nick: Why you shouldn't take cues from the pros on position - VeloNews.com

You save weight on the rims, which is rotating weight. That matters more then the weight of a spare.
Apparently (from what I can tell from this and other references) the 'insides' of a folded tire will tend to stick together, but not to an unmanageable degree. From this I am assuming that the adhesion required to hold a tubular on a rim during a high speed cornering move comes from the pressure of an inflated tire against a rim (plus whatever that does to the adhesion of typical tubular glue). I can't think of any other reason that you could fold a spare tubular and pull it apart.

Regarding rim weight vs. 'other weight' it is a function of why you care about weight. If it isn't about accelerations (IOW mostly about climbing) then it doesn't matter. But if your concern is more about tracking the accelerations of an aggressive group in a crit or whatever, then yeah verily.

If I am incorrect on either of these points, I'd be interested in a better understanding - thanks.

dave
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