e_guevara

Some previous posters noted the utter disregard of the Chinese economy (yes, I'm generalizing) for business/engineering ethics to earn a quick buck - be it manufacturing or environmental regulations. Yes, I agree it's not good painting an entire society with broad brushstrokes but, as BDop noted, the goods ones that are monitored and licensed by international companies are overrun by the shady ones.

Let me share my brother's experience with Chinese manufacturing...

My brother worked as a QA (quality assurance) engineer for a very large American semiconductor company (guess who?). During the late 90's and early 2000's, China was opening their doors to international trade. The promise of lower production costs made the company transfer a large part of their manufacturing to China. Engineers were sent to install systems and train personnel for the newly built factories there.

When the first batch of chips were made, a performance report of the production run was sent to my brother's department. They couldn't figure out how on earth the newly-built Chinese factory could turn out such high performance numbers that never in his 5 years of doing QA have seen in their own factory. It turned out that the Chinese engineers falsified the data in their reports.

It took months of correction, retooling, retraining, and close supervision by the QA department to finally get the "normal" numbers they were expecting to see.

The lack of QC/QA from shady manufacturers is what makes their products scary.

e_guevara

Chinese manufacturing is cheap because:

• Cheap labor: Little regulation on employee welfare (overworked, underpaid). Cost of living is also cheaper.
• Lack of EPA regulation: As Campagnono stated, dumping industrial wastes is cheaper than disposing of them properly. It takes money (the company's money) to make your system more environment friendly. There is also little government regulation on pollution (you don't pay fines for excessive emissions/pollution) until recently. Chinese manufacturing cities (Guangzhou, Chengdu) are very polluted. Bdop is right that you usually come back from those cities sick from the pollution.
• Lack of Intellectual Property protection: There have been documented cases of piracy and IP infringement in China. They don't pay royalties to the people/companies that own the patent/s.

The problem I see here is ethics - lack of human ethics (giving them what they deserve), lack of environmental ethics (taking care of the environment), and lack of professional ethics (acknowledging ownership).

Well said.

Willbird

Well there is also the thing about using part of your population as essentially agricultural slaves who do not have running water or electricity :-).

The restroom facilities in large portions of China are not far removed from a slit trench in the backyard.

In France(I'm guessing here), or the USA the lowest farm hand or migrant worker can go where they please to seek a better life, not so in China.....sure it is not SIMPLE to jump from one socioeconomic level to the higher ones, but the only barrier is hard work and being willing to get the education required for some vocations.

People with a HS diploma and who come to work can and do become my coworkers and earn from 30k to 40k with decent benefits just by coming to work and showing some initiative .....


Bill

Campagnono

I do agree, but regardless, China is not a caste system. They are just starting off from a lower level.

As much as we love the "rags to riches" stories in both American and French cultures, 99% of dumb parents have dumb kids, at least in France, surely in the States, too. Sure, there is an astronaut or an engineer or a lawyer in there someone, but if Daddy beats Mommy, and Mommy smokes, and Daddy only works four months a year and is in and out of jail, then little Billy's chance of finishing dental school is pretty low.

America and France are the same I think. Just the guns and food are different. You guys love to kill with guns. We have just as many *** owners as you, per capita. Everyone I know has a *** here. But no one walks into a school and just wastes kids with one. If you hate your wife and need to kill her, you poison her, the old fashioned way. If your husband cheats on you and you're crazy, you stab him in the neck with a screwdriver while he sleeps. When the Corsican mafia needs to take someone down, they stab them twenty times in the throat with a 30mm concealed blade.

But Americans love to shoot things and watch them die, it's just ingrained in your culture. It's not some "mental health problem" either. I won't pretend to know what it is, but half of France is totally insane, yet no one gets shot at a movie theater or a mall or a school by some maniac or crazy co-worker or CHILD.

America is so beautiful. You would have so much more tourism dollars if you just eliminated the guns and *** violence. Either/or. We don't care that you have guns, we just care that so many of you are so easily engaged to using them.

Yikes, rant city. Look, the point is America and France and the EU, good and bad, but buy from the vendors of these nations. They care about educating their kids, and whether you agree with the national politics, the working classes are skilled, work hard, and earn livable wages for the most part. China cannot say the same on any of these accounts.

1000g Chinese wheels!!!

Campagnono

The word g.u.n. is censored. That seems impossible and yet describes the predicament America is in perfectly.

gregf83 

Interestingly guns is acceptable so it's ok to talk about your collection of guns but not your *** collection.

Campagnono

Yeah, and what about Ron Burgundy's *** show???

sced

Been to France several times and love it there. Have French fiends. The French take much better care of their country and themselves than Americans. France is a lot cleaner and they have arguably the best healthcare system in the world. A lot fewer fat people too.

China makes a lot of great stuff - check your devices.

Willbird

China more or less PAYS people to post on forums, there were a couple over on a Machinist forum I go to a lot.....they more or less admitted they DO control where people live, and how they live, they cannot "have" every farm hand packing up and moving to the city to earn 10x to 100x more, and have running water and electricity (china HAS made great strides in electrificication though I see), something like 350,000,000 people in China do not have electricity at home however.

It is not a "caste" system, but the individuals lives are controlled by the govt, and those working in agriculture are more or less slaves to the far more wealthy people living in the more industrial areas.

The people in the USA that work in Agriculture can load up all their stuff and move to NYC and buy a hot dog vendors license or a taxi medallion and make what the New Yorkers call "stupid money" if they have the means to get there and the $$ saved up to buy that license or medallion. Or like many newly minted Americans have done buy a 711 or other carry out, and run the joint strictly with family members labor until you OWN the thing in 5 years, then lend money to others in the same ethnic group to let them do the same.

I think it is "interesting" what the rest of the world thinks we should do to cure violent crime in urban centers....despite all evidence that banning and controlling certain small machines that move projectiles at high velocity using heat energy has the reverse effect of what was intended.

And the response to widespread law breaking when it comes to Weed, meth, cocaine, and other drugs is that we must change the laws :-).

But anyway, nobody in America, or France (as far as I know) is not allowed the freedom to become what they want to, where they want to, or how they want to..................in order to keep a large portion of the population sequestered in the boonies growing and raising food for their betters in more industrial areas :-). Agriculture does not pay was well here as say being a union tool and die maker for one of the big three automakers, but it pays more than poverty level, and the union tool and die maker might earn 4x what an hourly wage farm hand does here...but not 10x or 100x, and the farm hand at the drop of a hat can seek to BECOME a union tool and die maker if he/she desires to.

Bill

Willbird

My employer also has a facility in China to produce component parts for some of our products, we have one in Mexico too. Some of the issues with China are the LONG supply line, there is a LOT of product in the "pipe" when it has to come over on ships, and it must clear customs, etc.

Then there is the whole month a year the country takes off every year...technically only 15 days according to Wiki, but there might be a couple weekends added on too, couple those two things together and you can end up with a HUGE pile of defective product in the "pipe"....could amount to 10% to 20% of a years production.

Contrast that with Mexico, the stuff comes in on trucks, hits the border in DAYS......yes there is a language barrier but far more Americans maybe speak Spanish compared to Chinese......all and all quality issues are more easily addressed quickly....the supply is more constant (no 15 day holiday).

Bill

Campagnono

No disagreement on any points you just made.

We are also an incredibly strong unionized nation, even to the disregard of the consumer. The worker is King here. The political right tries to change this, and this is why we vote the left back into power. But we are also a racist country, so when there are too many Arabs and Africans, we vote the right back to moderate immigration policy. Good and bad, just like America. The please-all scenario in a true democracy is impossible.

It is indeed incredible the level of service and "help" I have received in Canada and America. We will never have that, we will never be a service economy, but instead a worker economy. Many of us are okay with this, but some wish it was more like America. For instance, you can't get anything here on a Sunday, anywhere, ever. Except the huge cities. Or after 8pm, anywhere, ever.

These facts we are discussing are the minutiae of what makes our countries great.

I really was ignorant to the fact that China had forced location of residents. They fight against democracy. They fight against equality. They're friends with North Korea...

My Garmin 510 is awesome. So is my iPhone 4. Made in China. Created in America/elsewhere.

BoSoxYacht

So what does any of this have to do with the wheels the OP purchased?

Please take the political discussion elsewhere.

Campagnono

The quality of the political, social, and environmental economies of the Peoples Republic of China have a direct and obvious correlation with the level of suckage present in the aforementioned 1000g wheel set.

It is just a thorough and armchair back-grounding from several individuals and their professional and experiential relationships with China.

Granted, I am no mechanical engineer, though others with far more experience than I have espoused on why these particular wheels suck.

However, I don't need this engineering experience as I have a diverse set of other experiences with China, Chinese policies, and Chinese business practices to unequivocally state that China sucks, and therefore so do these wheels.

/Thread Closed Much?

totalnewbie

I am ethnic Chinese (grew up in Hong Kong, educated and worked in US, living in Taiwan now) so I guess I can throw in my 2 cents here... I don't intend to go political here.

Even Chinese from Mainland China do not trust their own local products. Many Mainlanders cross the border everyday over to Hong Kong to buy nothing but cartloads of foreign-branded baby formulae and smuggled them back to China for resale because of those poisonous baby formulae made in China made news a few years back. Nobody in China wants to feed their babies with Chinese-made baby formulae if they have a choice. Even the citizens in Hong Kong are complaining Mainlanders sweeping off all their supplies, among other things. I used this as an example to show that it's not the West against the East. I feel ashamed but had to agree that in general, business ethics and professionalism is on the low end of spectrum in China. Even Chinese people expect their own manufacturers to cut corners when nobody is looking.

Can you name one single Chinese brand name whose products is known internationally? I bet most people can't. Brands like Lenovo and Oppo are rare exceptions. Yes, most of us live daily with Chinese-made products all around us, but you know most of these are "backed" by foreign brands, whose heads are on the line to make sure there are enough R&Ds and QCs behind these products to provide the consumer with satisfactory experience.

Regarding the wheels in questions, we are talking about an unknown seller selling an unbranded product on the ebay-equivalent. I don't refute that there are good sellers on alibaba but it's like the wild west. Think of a bunch of kindergarteners, after tasting Coca-Cola for the first time, decided that they too can make the beverage and sell it. Just add black dye, sugar in water and blow some bubbles into it, easy right? Boom all of a sudden you have 50 companies on alibaba selling Coca-cola. That's how scary the Chinese marketplace is. People there have been hungry and poor for so long that many will do anything to get rich with little regard to ethics. to the OP, I think Bob is merely warning you of the risks you are assuming. I don't think anybody here is sadistic enough to want to see you fall flat on your face on those Chinese wheels. Just be careful.

BoSoxYacht

Good idea.


Why cheap Chinese carbon wheels suck is irrelevant.

The fact is that they do suck.

Ultegra134

Can you please stop arguing for politics and so on?I didn't start this thread to discuss China's, France's and US" economy.I know, China has become Earth's Junkyard, and many pleple will die by cancer/pollution the following years.But this is not the reason I opened the thread.
I will report as soon as I test the wheelset.Not all chinese are crap, I would definetely prefer Taiwanese products but anyway, we'll see.I already ordered tires.I'll be back soon.
And stop arguing over nothing, please.

Campagnono

Debatable. "Why JFK was assassinated is irrelevant." "Why Campagnolo is the best gruppo on earth is irrelevant."???

Undebatable.

Campagnono

i leave you with a quote from my favorite American film, The Three Amigos.

"Mister, Mister, can I have your watch when you are dead?"

Willbird

I'm not endorsing unions, but the facts are that the pay is the among the highest of hourly workers, til the parasite kills the host :-). I work in a right to work state, the few jobs left here in NW Ohio are dying out and not being replaced.....but there are jobs in Indiana :-)

Campag4life

You are so incredibly clueless and play right into the stereotype of America's perception of the French.
Your blather rivals that of a fiction writer. I think you have eaten too much of that waste you move around for a living. I will say this, you are in the right line of work.

Mods...really? Why don't you put this blowhard out of his mystery?
Thanks.

Campag4life

Finally, the voice of reason. It took a gentlemen from China to define the dynamic at play here. China has technical talent but for a variety of reasons unless supervised by international companies with their reputation at stake, their products are a lottery in terms of quality and reliability because of lack of due diligence...partly due to ignorance relative to best practices but also due to quick profit.

Ultegra134

The tires finally arrived.3 Tufo S33 Pro 21mm tires for less than $50!The installation instructions the tires had say that I should apply glue to the tire, then on the rim, mount it and leave it for 24 hours.What do you think about this?

halfspeed

I think you should put them on some decent wheels.

cyclebycle13

That should be fine. Running tufos is a big mistake. Pretty much the same as wrapping a garden hose around your wheels and riding on that. They're rocks and they ride like rocks.

RPK79

"Made in China" is not a sign of quality.