rpenmanparker 

Just supposing I were foolish enough to consider building myself some tubular wheels, I would need some suggestions for the type of rim I am looking for. I would be doing this to push the weight way downward toward 1,000 g for the pair. I'm thinking of 20-25 mm deep carbon rims weighing about 250 g each. Enve makes 25 mm deep rims at that weight, but they are way above any price point I can reasonably consider. I am having trouble finding any other ones except for several no-name Chinese ones on ebay in the 20 mm and 270-300 g range. Does anyone know of any RESPECTABLE Chinese or Taiwanese carbon rims in this depth and weight range that don't cost an arm and a leg. Being tubular, the low weight should not be so frightening regarding structural integrity either at normal or elevated (due to braking) temperatures. The low profile and lack of the clincher brake track mean that the walls of such a rim should not be dangerously fragile. And if anyone can recommend a reliable manufacturer/seller, that would make me feel even better. Thanks.

dtrain

b-dop carries a 24mm carbon tubular novatec wheel. Maybe the rim is available separately?

rpenmanparker 

I did see that, but notice the weight of the wheels. Looks like the rims are pretty hefty. Thanks.

Bob Dopolina 

Those aren't available separately.

What is your price range?

rpenmanparker 

I hope you didn't take offense from my comment about your low profile rims being hefty. I'm sure the purpose and intent of those wheels is quite different than what I have in mind so that they are executed properly for their intended use.

I debated PMing you about this question, but was fairly certain you would discover my thread and come in on your own. Clearly you are the best resource to answer this kind of question.

Well I sure like the approximately $200/pair I see for the Chinese products on ebay. Of course I don't expect to find that in a more reputable offering. I'm thinking up to twice that amount for a pair of rims wouldn't hurt me too badly. But I would appreciate knowing about whatever is available at different levels below Enve's >$1,000 price.

Thanks.

Bob Dopolina 

No offense taken on the Novatec wheels. They are what they are. I don't design them or have any input on them (we don't even actually sell the wheels, we provide links to distibutors). We work with them on the hub side of things.

I think I know which Chinese rims you were considering. They have a history and not a good one.

What you are looking for is available in the price range you are considering. PM me or email me at the sales email and I can fill you in.

rpenmanparker 

Great, thanks.

Bandera

Interesting: "back when" we built wheels as required be it for road, velodrome or tandem use and never considered that what was in the supply chain was not suitable for use.

Is this a result of the greed for "knock offs" of reputable products that result in un-ride able and un-safe junk?

Bob, Your opinion?

BTW: My 1984 Mavic MA-40 front rim is doing just fine since 1985.......

-Bandera

Bob Dopolina 

I'm pretty sure my opinion is well known; I've beat that drum to death.

I used to ride MA-40 rims back in the day. Sturdy and durable but aero like a brick wall. They were great training rims.

Bandera

So sorry, I've been plootering about in the Hill Country and missed that drum beat along with a good deal else no doubt.
Could you give me a brief re-cap if it's not totally deceased?

"Back when" we would build a set of tubulars from Fiamme, Mavic, Super Champion or Ambrosio with the proper weight for track, road or 'cross with confidence.
How do you see that has changed?


-Bandera

rpenmanparker 

Perhaps Bob will come back in on your question.

Meanwhile let me point out the concommitant changes which have occurred. These have made rim weight and strength more important than in the past. Consider the movement from 36 spokes on road wheels front and back to 20 spokes front and 24 spokes back. Consider the movement from 2.0 mm diameter straight gauge spokes to 2.0/1.5/2.0 mm ultra-butted spokes and their aero equivalents. Consider the difference in dishing between a 120 mm OLD rear wheel and one with 130 mm OLD. Consider the deeper V profiles of todays rims that mean similar amounts of material are now distriuted over much larger surface areas than in old box section rim or in other words consider the thinner walls of today's rims.

Perhaps I could think of more changes over time, but I think you should get the idea. With aluminum and even moreso with carbon fiber it has become especially important to manufacture rims to very tight tolerances. Otherwise the amount of material being used just wouldn't be enough.

Jiggle

Expensive is your only option. I'd get the Enves.

Bob Dopolina 

Incorrect.

hamster

With $200/pair rims on ebay, you usually need to pay another 40-50 for shipping from China. On top of that, budget $100 for a pair of lightweight hubs and $100 for the spokes. All told, you're looking at the neighborhood of $500 for the wheelset. Between rock-bottom labor costs in mainland China and shipping overhead, it may be cheaper to buy a complete wheelset than to build everything by yourself if you have to do multiple shipments to get the parts stateside.

Here's a wheelset that's nearly the same as mine: carbon 24mm wheels road bicycle 700c tubular Light-Bicycle Claimed weight 1080 g, price $485 before shipping. It's pretty representative of what you should be expecting.
I have 50 mm rims from the same company, same front hub, slightly heavier spokes. If you get one from Bob, you'd probably also get these hubs and spokes, but different rims.

rpenmanparker 

Thanks. I always find the product lines from companies like this confusing. They always seem to want to switch you to what is currently available. And I don't see the same weight rim on their rim list that would have to be the one used in that light wheelset. The one shown is too heavy to make up to that light a wheel. But it is a good start for knowing what might be available. I appreciate the link.

canam73

Well, are you going to tell the rest of us the secret the next time? Or is this just for the Bob club? Bobs are jerks, always whispering about stuff.

Bob Dopolina 

Actually, I knew a particular vendor that was making a 20mm deep carbon tubular. I contacted them and they have pulled the product for the time being. I think the demand was so low they shelved it in favour of other rims that were selling well.

This is a really hard rim to make and if you aren't doing it all the time it's easy to mess up. The only way to make money would be to be producing lots of them, all the time. I guess there just wasn't the demand.

rpenmanparker 

I appreciate you trying to help out. If you run across something like this in future, please let me know. But be sure to PM me. Being jerks, we don't want anyone else to find out. (Whisper, whisper!)

rpenmanparker 

I know you are thinking about this from the point of view of the cachet of the finished product. But if you think about this from the hobby perspective, the Enves make no sense. I want to have the most projects I can work on as possible. Just in terms of rim cost, I could build four or five sets of wheels from the low priced rims as I could from the Enves. Of course I won't do that, but I say it to provide some perspective. Other projects, which will be funded by the reserve created by the savings from the cheaper rims, will come along. Then coupling that with the fact that I put very little stress on my wheels, a well made but cheaper alternative should work fine for me.

hamster

What makes you think that it's too heavy?
2 rims, 300 g each: 600
Front hub: 60
Rear hub: 230
44 spokes @ 4.3 g each: 189
44 nipples @ 0.3 g each: 13
---
1092 g