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Roadie's probable recklessness leaves a woman brain dead

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Roadie's probable recklessness leaves a woman brain dead

Old 09-19-14, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by canam73
...I also figured you may have done a modicum of investigating on your own before posting as much as you have.

Maybe all the info and sources listed are wrong, maybe not, I don't know. Rant on, dude.
Why would I investigate this? Am I affected by this incident? I don't live in NYC. I'm not a cop. I can't say what I'd do as either a pedestrian or a cyclist in this case. So what is my motivation here? I'm simply objecting to the very lynch-mob-ish character this thread is turning into.

And please... don't be such an internet sleuth. All the "info and sources" you read are all coming from the same three people (an English university student on break, his "pal", and probably a jr. cop assigned to handle the press) and all second, third, or fourth hand. Tell me you know this.
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Old 09-19-14, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
You seem far too eager to jump to conclusions. just say'n. Do we even know if this is the guy? He looks remarkably well for just having slammed into the ground after colliding with a pedestrian...
...weeellll, here's the thing. I do not really care one way or the other, but I'm certainly not gonna contort myself to defend the behavior so far described.

I witnessed a lot of this same argument out here when my Strava hero in San Fran offed that poor ol' guy. My guy took a plea that kept him out of jail,
but that does not change the fact that there were a great many words wasted by the bicycle community here calling for keeping an open mind.
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Old 09-19-14, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...weeellll, here's the thing. I do not really care one way or the other...
It's pretty obvious that you do.
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Old 09-19-14, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
It's pretty obvious that you do.
...I'd need a link to a newspaper article to judge, one way or the other.
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Old 09-19-14, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
... but I'm certainly not gonna contort myself to defend the behavior...
Funny that you equate an objection to rampant speculation as a "defense" of a certain behavior.
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Old 09-19-14, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I'd need a link to a newspaper article to judge, one way or the other.
Seems some people do. "Source or it didn't happen", right? Got said in a newspaper so it must be true...
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Old 09-19-14, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Why would I investigate this? Am I affected by this incident? I don't live in NYC. I'm not a cop. I can't say what I'd do as either a pedestrian or a cyclist in this case. So what is my motivation here? I'm simply objecting to the very lynch-mob-ish character this thread is turning into.

And please... don't be such an internet sleuth. All the "info and sources" you read are all coming from the same three people (an English university student on break, his "pal", and probably a jr. cop assigned to handle the press) and all second, third, or fourth hand. Tell me you know this.
I only suggest that the Jason in the picture is the same man involved in the accident and identified as an accomplished sax player. You can look him up and see the same man pictured, and many national and international news outlets have repeated it. The kinds of places that don't like to get busted in defamation of character situations.

But again, maybe they are all wrong. And again, rant on. This is a forum after all, where people express opinions.
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Old 09-19-14, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by canam73
This is a forum after all, where people express opinions.
...that's just your opinion, man.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by canam73
... many national and international news outlets have repeated it. The kinds of places that don't like to get busted in defamation of character situations.

...
Those kinds of places don't care about defaming the character of an individual with no political or purse-string power. My only point is: why make assumptions when you don't have to? Remember Trayvon Martin and the infamous picture the news outlets got ahold of that was from when he was a kid? That's the power the media has over a story, and that's why doing this internet sleuthing stuff is dangerous.

(and read what I actually wrote: I am not taking a political position about a hoodie-wearing pedestrian getting shot by an idiot, I am talking about the dangers of jumping to conclusions based on a half reported story and internet sleuthing to find out what people look like and making character judgements based on those findings)
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Old 09-19-14, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
I am talking about the dangers of jumping to conclusions based on a half reported story and internet sleuthing to find out what people look like and making character judgements based on those findings)
...like this, you mean ?

Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
It's pretty obvious that you do.
Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Funny that you equate an objection to rampant speculation as a "defense" of a certain behavior.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...like this, you mean ?
*you do it so I can do it too!!!* What are you, twelve?

You're here and can defend yourself through further conversation. The guy you're ragging on is not able to respond. You truly don't see a difference in this situation?
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Old 09-19-14, 04:28 PM
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Pretty crazy article, sad situation. Wonder why the guy didn't just stop, I see brake levers on the bike and the description of him being on the aero bars as a reason why he couldn't brake is kinda weak sauce. But then again it does sound like the writer was getting atoner talking about how elite this dudes bike is.

If it was at a cross walk it's his fault, pedestrians have right of way. And on top of it he was in a car lane so that's strike two. And the final coffin nail is he hit a rich guys wife, a rich guy that works at a media company.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Finally, the voice of someone who knows the cyclist and the area and rides a bike. The trifecta. Thank you for lending a bit of rationality to this conversation . The sucky thing about this incident is it is entirely possible that a very slight change in circumstance would have led to much less injury to the pedestrian. Something as small as her turning her head slightly (and seeing the cyclist out of the corner of her eye) or her not having her hand in her pocket (pinning it to her side) when she was hit. Very very very slight changes of circumstances and she might have lived.

She likely was blindsided and hit her head in a bad way, possibly on the curb. Bad news, but there isn't necessarily a bad person or even a bad mistake. Stuff happens; sometimes people die for trivial reasons. I think we should all take a second to remember this before getting out the pitch forks.

Live without fear; kiss your kids; be nice to strangers you meet, because two minutes from now, you might be dead from something completely unforeseeable, something completely random, something utterly trivial.
Would love to know your reaction had this been your wife or daughter. Ah crap. Sorry to hear that. Must of been a queer twist of fate. $h!t happens.

A poster already said he knew the route and it is pedestrian strewn who stepped where they shouldn't. He said the route was frought with close calls. So anybody doing the route should know to ride with caution rather than with aggression.
I just hope the verdict gets back to this thread when he goes before the judge.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ultraorange
Pretty crazy article, sad situation. Wonder why the guy didn't just stop, I see brake levers on the bike and the description of him being on the aero bars as a reason why he couldn't brake is kinda weak sauce. But then again it does sound like the writer was getting atoner talking about how elite this dudes bike is.

If it was at a cross walk it's his fault, pedestrians have right of way. And on top of it he was in a car lane so that's strike two. And the final coffin nail is he hit a rich guys wife, a rich guy that works at a media company.
It ain't weak sauce if he was on the aerobars without brake access riding balls out with pedestrains nearby. Its homicide or at least manslaughter.

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Old 09-19-14, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Those kinds of places don't care about defaming the character of an individual with no political or purse-string power. My only point is: why make assumptions when you don't have to? Remember Trayvon Martin and the infamous picture the news outlets got ahold of that was from when he was a kid? That's the power the media has over a story, and that's why doing this internet sleuthing stuff is dangerous.

(and read what I actually wrote: I am not taking a political position about a hoodie-wearing pedestrian getting shot by an idiot, I am talking about the dangers of jumping to conclusions based on a half reported story and internet sleuthing to find out what people look like and making character judgements based on those findings)
There is difference between your example where a person was correctly identified and your implication that the man in this case is not. Tell me you know this.

And look at how much you have now wrote only because I gave an explanation of why the guy wearing Rapha doesn't look like he was just in a bike accident. What is so troubling about that to you?
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Old 09-19-14, 04:38 PM
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Brian's right. The rampant speculation, conclusion jumping and axe grinding is more than a bit disturbing.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
A poster already said he knew the route and it is pedestrian strewn who stepped where they shouldn't. He said the route was frought with close calls. So anybody doing the route should know to ride with caution rather than with aggression.
I just hope the verdict gets back to this thread when he goes before the judge.
If nothing, the cyclist exhibited "bad judgement" in my view. You ride anywhere, and I mean anywhere, taking into consideration the conditions and peculiarities of that environment. I have been to Central Park many times, and as a long time cyclist, I always shudder at the speed quite a lot of roadies ride at.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jed19
If nothing, the cyclist exhibited "bad judgement" in my view. You ride anywhere, and I mean anywhere, taking into consideration the conditions and peculiarities of that environment. I have been to Central Park many times, and as a long time cyclist, I always shudder at the speed quite a lot of roadies ride at.
Yeah. And not always just on the road. A group rides on MUP's everyday of the week put ped's in harms way. Sometimes it goes wrong.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by halfspeed
Brian's right. The rampant speculation, conclusion jumping and axe grinding is more than a bit disturbing.
+1
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Old 09-19-14, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Jed19
If nothing, the cyclist exhibited "bad judgement" in my view. You ride anywhere, and I mean anywhere, taking into consideration the conditions and peculiarities of that environment. I have been to Central Park many times, and as a long time cyclist, I always shudder at the speed quite a lot of roadies ride at.
His best average speed on that 1.1 mile segment was 12.2 mph.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Campag4life
Would love to know your reaction had this been your wife or daughter. ...
I don't think about things like this. If it happens to me, it happens and I'll deal. Shame on you for bringing up hypotheticals about my loved ones getting killed.

We don't know if the guy was riding with caution or aggression.

If the guy is riding with caution, there is a non-zero chance a collision might occur.

Yes, an English university student on vacation said he was going fast (most cyclists traveling in the "car" lanes do go fast relative to pedestrians). Yes, his "pal" stated he didn't seem to slow down (so did the police officer when I was 17 and rear-ended a guy; I had the brake pedal pushed to the floor though... wheeled vehicles don't look like they are stopping if there's no accompanying melodramatic brake squeal/tires smoking).

Notice I have made exactly zero statements of fact about this incident. Except for two which are self-evident: 1) A pedestrian and a cyclist at speed collided and 2) the pedestrian had a head injury and died. I am sorry someone died. I'm not going to speculate about how the cyclist was stupid, a moron, evil, should be jailed, a Strava junkie, irrational, negligent, criminal... as an expression of sympathy. These are weighty concepts not to be tossed around lightly. That is all I am talking about.

People want it to be true that the cyclist was a dick, irresponsible, a moron, criminal, for two reasons: 1) it sets the world to rights because a lady got killed and so there must be a bad guy to take the blame for the tragedy, and 2) if the cyclist was a dick, it means all us other self-proclaimed non-dicks are safe from ever being in this situation. Comforting thoughts both, but patently untrue.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
His best average speed on that 1.1 mile segment was 12.2 mph.
Well, running into that poor woman at 12.2 mph most likely wouldn't have resulted in her being brain dead. Unless of course she was unlucky to hit her head in a very unusual way.

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Old 09-19-14, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...well of course. I'm only stating that relying on "swerving" and/or "shouting get out of the way" as your fallback is defective from the outset.

I'm not a big fan of our Strava hero here in California, either. I'm not eager to jump to conclusions,
but the picture in the Gothamist sorta is not real likely to win friends and influence people.


#toomuchRaphanotenoughsense
Originally Posted by canam73
There is difference between your example where a person was correctly identified and your implication that the man in this case is not. Tell me you know this.

And look at how much you have now wrote only because I gave an explanation of why the guy wearing Rapha doesn't look like he was just in a bike accident. What is so troubling about that to you?
Context. It was 3alarmer's post that got that conversation started. Remember?
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Old 09-19-14, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jed19
Well, running into that poor woman at 12.2 mph most likely wouldn't have resulted in her being brain dead. Unless of course she was unlucky to hit her head in a very unusual way.
Falling and hitting your head on a curb at zero speed can result in you dying. People die in the shower from slip/fall all the time.
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Old 09-19-14, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Falling and hitting your head on a curb at zero speed can result in you dying. People die in the shower from slip/fall all the time.
Sure point. That is why I had the caveat in there.
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