Brand Hierarchy - Is it possible to rank road bike manufacturers?
09-23-14, 08:27 PM
#26
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More than I can keep track of and new ones opening every day in China. Some are good, some are very good and many...not so much.
Bikes are assembled by "Assembly Factories" that specialize in this process. The big players like Giant, Specialized, Fuji and a few others either own, are owned by or are partnered with a specific assembly factory. This has been a strong industry trend in the last few years. This is all about ASSEMBLY and not about quality of the goods produced.
A few but these are smaller players, for the most part and that only works in tube to tube construction. Even then, the tubes are made to the brand's spec. It just means they don't own the building where the work is done.
As far as I know only Giant and Time make their own carbon. Colnago used to do some really interesting stuff as well but I'm not current on anything they do now.
I don't think anyone makes their own resins but I could be wrong. If so, it would be a very, very short list.
See above.
And now the question is, so what?
In the olden days everyone bought tubing from a few tube manufacturers like Colombus, Reynolds etc, cast their own lugs (maybe) and welded in house. That seemed fine for steel. Why should carbon be any different? Why a different standard?
The first high end bikes I bought were all Columbus SL or SLX or some mixing of the two. All that mattered was the geometry and WHO welded the frame. If they were good, they were good and that was the end of the discussion.
And now the question is, so what?
In the olden days everyone bought tubing from a few tube manufacturers like Colombus, Reynolds etc, cast their own lugs (maybe) and welded in house. That seemed fine for steel. Why should carbon be any different? Why a different standard?
The first high end bikes I bought were all Columbus SL or SLX or some mixing of the two. All that mattered was the geometry and WHO welded the frame. If they were good, they were good and that was the end of the discussion.
Last edited by Bob Dopolina; 09-23-14 at 08:32 PM.
09-23-14, 08:33 PM
#27
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How many actual manufacturers are there?
There are those companies that outsource the frames then assemble the bike.
There are those companies that outsource the tubing, build the frame then assemble a bike.
There are those companies that outsource the CF, build the frame then assemble a bike.
There are those companies that weave(manufacture) their own CF from raw thread, manufacture their own resin, build the frame then assemble a bike.
I think the last would be a top tier quality manufacturer. Just how many are there?
But maybe the above is not relevant.
There are those companies that outsource the frames then assemble the bike.
There are those companies that outsource the tubing, build the frame then assemble a bike.
There are those companies that outsource the CF, build the frame then assemble a bike.
There are those companies that weave(manufacture) their own CF from raw thread, manufacture their own resin, build the frame then assemble a bike.
I think the last would be a top tier quality manufacturer. Just how many are there?
But maybe the above is not relevant.
Most frames are a monocoque design, which is manufactured by someone else. The designer would typically have control of the molds, resin/CF specifications, etc. This basically covers the vast majority of carbon bikes sold.
A few manufacturers assemble a frame from raw tubes (manufactured elsewhere). The main disadvantage to this technique is the frame is heavier than a monocoque design. The Colnago C59/C60 for example.
The designing company is the most critical part. Its generally their responsibility for frame design, supplier selection and final quality control. If a company fails at any of those aspects, you're going to get a lousy bike.
09-23-14, 08:47 PM
#30
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I thought the answer to this was clear cut. Whichever brand won the TDF is the best. I could swear I saw that on a Specialized ad.
The only way this doesn't count is if the TDF officials find an illegal substance in the chain lube.
The only way this doesn't count is if the TDF officials find an illegal substance in the chain lube.
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09-23-14, 09:01 PM
#31
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I want to start winning races, have the respect of everyone who sees me, and adoration from beautiful women. Whose bikes are best for that?
09-23-14, 10:51 PM
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You're looking for shorthand either to dump a few grand without doing your homework, or to compare dicks at the group ride, and there is no possible way this thread couldn't be an obnoxious, useless crap heap.
09-24-14, 01:44 AM
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Take into consideration that like Cannondale makes a $1,400 105 bike in AL so does Willier or BMC. I am comparing their Flagship frames and the premium they command. For example, a supersix high mod frame goes for $2,500 (example but +/-), an S-works Tarmac goes for $3,500, a Pinarello FP8 goes for $5,800 and a Storck Fascenario goes for $9,000. These are only frames. Components you can choose afterwards for the same price no matter what the frame.
As for your list, I would swap Cannondale with Ridley, Scott with Orbea. Cannondale and Scott both sponsors TDF teams and are far larger/more common than Ridley and Orbea.
09-24-14, 02:43 AM
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A manufacturer's capabilities......tier 1
Advanced Composite Tech | Technology - Giant Bicycles | United States
Giant - Making of Composite - YouTube
Advanced Composite Tech | Technology - Giant Bicycles | United States
Giant - Making of Composite - YouTube
09-24-14, 04:24 AM
#36
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Is it possible to rank road bike brands?
Like:
Tier 1 - High End Custom Builders
BMC?
Tier 2 - Big Name, Off the Rack Brands
Specialized
Trek
Cannondale
Tier 3 - Smaller, Off the Rack Brands
Fuji?
Felt?
Marin?
Scott?
Tier 4 - "Off" Brands
Schwinn?
Motobecane?
These are just guesses/examples. Is it possible to do this sort of hierarchy in a meaningful way? Are more tiers needed? What would your list look like?
Like:
Tier 1 - High End Custom Builders
BMC?
Tier 2 - Big Name, Off the Rack Brands
Specialized
Trek
Cannondale
Tier 3 - Smaller, Off the Rack Brands
Fuji?
Felt?
Marin?
Scott?
Tier 4 - "Off" Brands
Schwinn?
Motobecane?
These are just guesses/examples. Is it possible to do this sort of hierarchy in a meaningful way? Are more tiers needed? What would your list look like?
09-24-14, 06:20 AM
#38
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09-24-14, 08:26 AM
#39
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09-24-14, 08:35 AM
#40
~>~
Suitable for standing around in the parking lot at Hooters w/ a bunch of dentists dressed like pirates saying:
"Loud pipes save lives."
Very similar to standing around in the parking lot at Starbucks w/ a bunch of dentists dressed in lyrca saying:
"Pinnalized/Specarello: 400 Watts and HTFU."
"Loud pipes save lives."
Very similar to standing around in the parking lot at Starbucks w/ a bunch of dentists dressed in lyrca saying:
"Pinnalized/Specarello: 400 Watts and HTFU."
09-24-14, 08:38 AM
#41
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Possible to rank them? Sure. Possible to arrive at a consensus on that ranking? Not bloody likely.
09-24-14, 09:02 AM
#42
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The C60 is CF lugged, hand made in Italy
The V1-r is monocoque, made in Taiwan.
The best bike is the one you like most, when it comes to resale value, Colnago seems to retain values best.
IMHO, the bike frame (any manufacturer) is way overrated.
Here is Wiggo's opinion, but hey a frame is just a bunch of orientated fiber and resin tubes held together, as light as can be safe. No rocket science here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMO...ArdOMmhNaXE67Q
The V1-r is monocoque, made in Taiwan.
The best bike is the one you like most, when it comes to resale value, Colnago seems to retain values best.
IMHO, the bike frame (any manufacturer) is way overrated.
Here is Wiggo's opinion, but hey a frame is just a bunch of orientated fiber and resin tubes held together, as light as can be safe. No rocket science here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtMO...ArdOMmhNaXE67Q
Last edited by ColnagoC40; 09-24-14 at 09:08 AM.
09-24-14, 09:05 AM
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I currently have my Trek frame in for warranty replacement. I'll rank them as soon as I find out how they back up their warranty claims.
09-24-14, 09:09 AM
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And this is a good thing, right? Ideally you want things to be designed in Italy. That is their specialty. They make things beautiful. Who cares who does the dirty work?
09-24-14, 09:11 AM
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09-24-14, 09:39 AM
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Something tells me Ferrari owners would not be happy if the only thing Italian about their cars was the design and the paint job.
09-24-14, 09:44 AM
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09-24-14, 09:53 AM
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The last time I looked, Ferarri was using NGK spark plugs, made in Japan and they had a heavy technical partnership with Mahle, a German auto parts manufacturing company based in Germany.
09-24-14, 09:54 AM
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I've not had direct experience, but a close friend did. He was the original owner of an MTB that cracked (actually separated) at the chain stay. Trek gave him a new frame of equal value, but it was from their current line. It was a good quality frame. They did not pay for the transfer of parts or assembly of the new frame. But here's the surprise, they let him keep the old frame! He had it welded by a metallurgist and assembled it as a beater from spare parts. He was happy with the outcome.
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