BoSoxYacht

i'm not debating anything, simply correcting a few mistakes.

canam73

You are debating whether you are debating.

FBinNY 

See your prior post (No.23). Sounds like you're debating the soundness of the OP's decision to buy the steel frame in the first place.

BoSoxYacht

Not at all, just pointing out that he picked the heaviest, commonly used frame material.

BoSoxYacht

I'm stating facts, others are debating.

bt

I don't understand custom frame builds these days.

To me It's senseless.


Can someone 'splain it to me?

rpenmanparker 

OP doesn't think he can get fit otherwise, but has provided no details. With compact frames, I don't see how that is possible, but...

More generally, custom frames rely for their appeal on the traditional attitudes toward hand craftsmanship. For someone who can be fit properly either off the rack or by custom bike tailoring there is absolutely no technical advantage to the custom approach. In fact custom frames will most likely be deficient in several technical areas simply due to their one-off nature. Mass production of stock frames has included in it development processes and a level of iterative improvement and fine tuning that a one-off bike can never match except completely fortuitously. Master craftsman or not, the custom builder simply does not have the technical resources and production volume to perfect frame performance like a mass producer does. In the past we relied on the experience and expertise of the custom builder to build the right bike. Now the computer coupled with trial and error have taken over that role.

canam73

That's debatable.

JohnJ80

This is pretty much my thinking.

By way of explanation, the reasons that I prefer a steel frame, and stainless steel frame in particular, is to accommodate my traditional problems with stock frames that don't account for my arm and torso length. I'm also looking for some particular ride characteristics. This can best be accomplished with a custom frame.

Stainless is attractive to me because it is (a) lower maintenance than a painted frame (can be buffed out with an abrasive pad - no touchup paint), (b) looks really cool, and (c) the frame designer that I am using is an excellent builder and is very comfortable with stainless.

I can't do the same with Carbon easily at this price and stock carbon frames are part of the problem (it's what I have now) in terms of comfort and or what I want in ride characteristics. Ti is out because I just don't like the look of it. Not that it's bad, but I just don't care for it.

So the frame will be stainless, that's decided and done and what the bike will be.

I don't care that the frame is as light as a carbon bike and it doesn't have to be the lightest thing on the road. What I want in terms of lightness is to be where my current bike is (~17+ lbs) because that's a good weight for me with a damaged shoulder for lifting to the top of the car, onto the wall hooks etc... A few pounds heavier and I risk further injury which I do not need. I don't need or expect a 15lb bike.

My current bike is an entry level CF frame from 2007. Not particularly light but light enough for the day and in comparison to other bikes at its price point. It is much lighter than my older steel frames.

My last experience with a performance steel frame was back in the 80's with a DA 6 speed equipped Basso racing frame. That bike came in at around 23lbs with clincher tires and was top technology for it's time. Pretty amazing that this bike could be more than 6 lbs lighter and stiffer (the Basso was a noodle but extremely smooth).

Given that my last experience with a steel performance road bike was considerably heavier and since a custom frame is something you can't really go back on (important to get it right), I really want to make sure that I have realistic expectations for the weight of the bike. I don't want to find out the hard way that it's going to be heavier than my current spec. So that is the reason for the ask and the reason I'm looking for actual examples.


J.

rpenmanparker 

It is just arithmetic. Ask the builder what the frame will weigh. Add up the components, remembering to include bar tape and cables. Don't forget the fork weight. Voila.

Just a few comments about your expectations. That buffing the frame with an abrasive pad thing is BS. Unless you are a very skilled metal polisher, you have the exact abrasive that was used originally and/or are willing to do the whole frame at once, you will never get a touch up spot to look right. Sorry to have to tell you that, but there it is.

Also you won't have paint to worry about, but you will have to worry about the decals as they will not be protected by clear coat. They will get dirty on the edges and may well get damaged. Make sure you get several replacement sets from the frame builder if you care about that sort of thing. You never know how long he will be in business and getting replacements down the line can be a real PITA.

Finally it is not the weight you should be worrying about not being proved in advance, but the ride characteristics. IMO that is a total crap shoot. You and the builder have to be speaking the same language, and he has to be able to translate that into frame performance. In the old days the ability of a custom builder to do that was sufficient compared to the stock alternatives. Nowadays, the ride of stock frames is so incredibly optimized, that the relative chance of a custom builder accurately translating your wants into performance reality is mediocre at best. What level of custom bike building accomplishment used to be celebrated as wonderful and what the mass production market is doing today are night and day in favor of the stock bike.

I like all the frame materials so I am not prejudiced against steel. And I have been riding custom frames since 1983, so I am not negative about that either. But I think your best bet for ride satisfaction is to search the stock offerings long and hard for the bike that rides exactly as you want it to and fits you well. If your torso and arms are long, size up. If they are short, size down. The compact frame with sloping top tube allows you to ride a larger frame without worrying about standover height, And the existence of tall seat posts obviates the problem of a small frame. Considering all the sub-types of road frames these day like criterium, endurance, etc., you should be able to get the stack and reach that you need right off the rack. When those two dimensions are right, then the frame is right.

Good luck.

JohnJ80

Noted. I'm familiar with the geometry and what does what. I know what changes I want to make and what they do to the ride characteristics. I've not had good luck in finding that in stock frames nor do I have enough time to sort through all the brands and all the marketing BS more than I have already (that was last year's project). That's why I asked the question about overall bike weight and what has others have seen. Thanks for the advice, but I've got the rest of that under control.

Like I said, the frame builder and material decision has been made. What I want to know is where others are at in weight with actual bikes that exist.

J.

BoSoxYacht

but you would be doing the debating. I'm just stating facts.

BoSoxYacht

there's nothing wrong with steel as a frame material, I just think it's silly to worry about the weight if that is the material of choice.

I'm having a custom frame built from Enve CF tubes because it's free(in return for my feedback). If I were to pay for one to be built, I would go with titanium, but steel is fine too.

BoSoxYacht

for me its a simple issue of fit(very long legs + short torso). Old Italian bikes like my mid80s Colnago fit me great, but few(if any) manufacturers build stock frames like that anymore.

canam73

That's just your opinion.

bt

this thread is very subjective.

BoSoxYacht

That's a fact.

Vicegrip

I understand. Was keeping it simple. Both alloy groups are surpassed cost and weight by non stainless steels. I did not want to cloud the reason for my question or further hijack the thread with my question. I build race cars and non functional aspects are simply not considered.

rpenmanparker 

A race car is intended for a short racing career. Appearance of the metal shell is relatively unimportant to its function. A bicycle is often purchased for a lifetime of enjoyment. Corrosion resistance and appearance are as important to some folks as immediate function. Stainless steel makes sense if you like the look and freedom from corrosion. And has been said, the stuff IS strong.

Bradleykd

Stainless is my favorite polished metal! I agree that fixing blemishes will be a nightmare. It isn't like a Delorean that is matte bushed stainless and you can hit it with a scotch brite pad. Polishing stainless is tricky, especially with something like a bike that has many tubes and crevices.

I have no clue about the weight, but I love stainless bikes. I support your decision!

Vicegrip

Yes bicycles tend to at times have a bit more heart and soul calculated into their builds but critical devices in race cars are often times much closer to their design limits. I suspect you missed my point completely and seem to be somewhat uninformed as to the lifespan, requirements and construction methods of said devices in question. The "metal shell" is often not metal and quite often not a stressed member. From a monocoque unibody made from many complex structural shapes in a wide range of materials joined in complex ways to a tube frame made from joined tubing in a structure that shares much in materials selection with and methods use in metal is still nonetheless far more complex than a bike frame.
I don't profess to be an expert, I can barely find my own haz with both hands..... I already caused too much distraction to this thread and will continue in read only format.

Bradlekd. This method works right into the corners...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electropolishing

rpenmanparker 

Wut? You delude yourself.

link0

Your SS bike should easily weigh under 17lbs with those carbon tubular wheels. Nice choice.

pdedes

OP, you'll meet your weight target ~18 lb. With your current component choices.

JohnJ80

Actually, it is. It won't be a polished stainless but a matte brushed stainless as you describe. And a scotch brite pad is how you fix it.

J.