Campag4life

Well, its pretty clear, I am going to be voted class president. I harken this to popular music and even popular movies. Bubble gum guys don't get the deep stuff...lol.
So...what's are you guys going to chip and get me for Christmas? No, I don't want a box of pedigree frame tubes or even of custom frame of indeterminant size or construction.
I would like a nice see of Zipps...no Chinese knock offs....or a Campy SR groupset. No I don't want an imitation Campy groupset. No knock offs made in somebodies' basement. Just wanted to drop a hint.

Campag4life

Fred,
I think you need a trip to the doctor (me). Why don't you start a new thread and we can dissect your fit. BoSox may learn something.

BoSoxYacht

You'll get nothing, and like it.

Campag4life

That just isn't true. Hmmm, a pattern is emerging.

BoSoxYacht

It's doubtful you know more than me.

BoSoxYacht

the only pattern is that no matter what anyone says, you'll dispute what they say with your "facts".

Campag4life

Well, it really doesn't matter who knows more does it?
I will go one better out of respect for you and the forum. I will bow out and let the others guys discuss your build with you.
Good luck with your build BoSox.

Campag4life

Tough love?

BoSoxYacht

it's all good. No matter what we say, it's pretty clear that our opinions won't change. Feel free to say whatever you want about the build when I start to post more about it, but you should also realize that I don't think that a custom frame is the only option for me to get a great fit. There might be a few stock frames that get me close, but after nearly a decade of trying stock frames that come close, I have a chance at getting a custom build that will allow the fit that I have found to work best for me, without using a stack of spacers or a ugly upright stem.

Habanero makes a Ti frame that would fit me well, but I'm getting this one for free.

BoSoxYacht

Caddy shack

bt

for the love of all that's sacred, don't make it shiny black.

bigfred 

The vacuum bagging is necessary for structural layers. But, a "cosmetic" overlay does not need to be vac bagged. It can be wetted out with a clear epoxy, allowing all the adjuestment and fiber aligning in the world, and after curing simply clear coated with a UV protectant.

bigfred 

That's pretty much exactly what I was assuming. As much fun as it would be to discuss the geometry decissions you are making, in what is a thread about a custom frame, mentioning either morphological or frame dimensions is just feeding a troll. Which is really too bad.

bigfred 

I'm not starting a new thread to discuss my fit, because, it doesn't need discussing. I've been riding 30+ years. My position has been honed over that time and has remained within a small box for most of it. I am confident my current position is excellent and that you really wouldn't have anything to add. I've been fit by more than one professional and none have ever suggested anything but small tweeks. Two riding companions who have been going through our national coaching qualification training use my fit as an example of "correct".

What could you possibly prescribe that would be of any value to me?

Oh, and, what about that lead on a stock frame I was hoping you could provide?

bigfred 

How would you feel about some Enve rims instead of those Zipps?

Campag4life

Enve's will work. We can do production for just about all you have posted except for BB drop of 50mm. Let's see. I know probably 200 riders. I don't know a single rider with a BB drop of 50mm. For that matter, I don't know a single rider with fly handlebars on their road bike...or diamond encrusted wheels. I guess you are just 'unique' fred. Don't want to hijack. Said I was out...so that's it.

Campag4life

Not so. You can carry on. BoSox can post his dimensions and I promise not to comment. But he won't. I am just an excuse. I may snicker but I won't comment.
And then fred you can lend 'your expertise' and dissection which should have considerable sway. After all, you need a BB drop of 50mm for all your road bike off road adventures...lol. Well, maybe your bike is even amphibious! OK...I'm out...really.

Campag4life

Good one.
Is this thread the sequel?

bigfred 

So, you can trust them to make reliable rims, but, not frame components?

Is that all. That's a pretty small pool to draw from.

You need to get out more. And, ride with a few open minded tall guys.

Not pertinent to this thread or discussion.

[QUOTE=Campag4life;17398032] I guess you are just 'unique' fred.QUOTE]

No more or less than anyone else.


Don't play the victim or claim to be an excuse. You're the one who came out and challenge the idea of a custom frame. You seem to be struggling to accept that someone like BSY can "desire" a custom frame, regardless of whether they "need" one or not. None of us, you included, "need" a carbon frame of any sort to begin with.


And there you go, demonstrating your dismissive, arrogant and ignorant personality. Without a single question about why, you jump to erroneous assumptions with regard to my geometry requirements and motivations, that are patently incorrect . But, see fit to cop a superiour attitude that is most likely unwarranted.

I for one am glad, "you're out" of this thread. You obviously are incapable of constructive discussion of options and possible solutions that lie outside your limited experience.

rpenmanparker 

In fairness, no one said anything negative about the reliability of the ENVE frame components. There was some question (perhaps misguided) about the integrity of the assembly technique which has nothing at all to do with ENVE. There were also observations that the round tube frame components do not take full advantage of the diverse CF capabilities. But there was no criticism of the quality standards and safety reliability of the ENVE tubes.

bigfred 

Fair enough.

I would agree that concern about the tube joining method is misplaced beyond concern for the individual builders experience and expertice. Overwrapped joints have been around a long time and are well proven. I find it amazing that riders would be willing to quickly accept tubes glued into lugs. Probably because of steels history and their familiarity with lugged construction. But, would raise an eyebrow at the superior technique of actually laminating the joint. Even though a fair few mass produced frames have relied on that exact joint type over the years.

One thing I'm really curious about is the assertion that round tubes can't provide asymetrice characteristics. To the best of knowledge Enve is still hand wrapping prepreg over male mandrels to client specifications with regard to bias, in a uniform manner. But, in conversation with some of the local composite guys who build custom dinghy masts amongst other stuff and utilize filament winding and/or knitting machinery over their mandrels, it doesn't sound as though it would be difficult to achieve the exact characteristics everyone is presuming to be the domain of non-round shapes.

The entire assertion that the best composite engineers in the world are working on designing bicycles is laughable. There are schools pumping out composite engineers and there are far greater challenges and rewards for the really gifted amongst them than the cycling industry provides.

Everyone who lacks any knowledge of composite design, engineering or fabrication experience is treating this like some great, black, voodoo, science, that only a few hold the secrets to. The truth is anything but that.

Anyhow. I'm really interested to see how BSY's build progesses.

rpenmanparker 

Keep in mind that the monocoque process uses a complex "female mold" shape, i.e. the outer surface is pressed against a non-uniformly shaped mold while the inner surface is completely free form. Yes, it is pressed on the inside by a bladder, but not in a way that necessarily makes it all one thickness. The tubes custom builders use are MOSTLY uniform in thickness as they are basically squeezed between both male and female forms that produce a uniform gauge down the length. They are not even butted. It would seem they could be if the female mold were rigid, and the mandrel were collapsible. But that doesn't appear to be the case. In any case at least one degree of design freedom has been eliminated in the custom builder tubes. Different spec pre-preg pieces can be layered in the construction and on the top only or bottom or sides perhaps, but the gauge is uniform down the length of the tube. And that would require the tubes to be indexed relative to how they are positioned and rotated in the final assembly. I'm not sure whether this is ever done or not, but that is the main limitation that I see.

Doge

Hard one. We ordered our bladder molded frame today. As mentioned - you take what you get. Having had a few custom steel bikes in the day, its always nice being able to specify all the little stuff.

Doge

My customer (Name is Conesys if anyone cares) that I'm being distracted from as we speak makes aerospace connectors. Like most connecter companies these have been made from machined alloy, plated and assembled with labor used to insert the platted gold pins etc. They are all over aircraft and missiles in hundred if not thousands of pounds (just pound in missiles).
They recently found how to create these in one piece from composite. It cuts weight by half, cuts labor by 2/3 and...there is more money in it than bicycle frames.

All that reduced labor means what used to be done off shore can be done in the USA.

BoSoxYacht

Tube junctions will look like this. The tubes a mitered, and bonded together. Then filler is used to smooth things out before getting wrapped with prepreg sheets. It then gets vacuum bagged, and baked in the oven. After sanding, the joint looks pretty good to me, and there's no need for a cosmetic layer.