How long can you hold 600 watts?
12-19-14, 04:46 AM
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This is spot on. And when you're doing 60" intervals you can't believe how long and excruciatingly painful 60 seconds can be. It's never the case where you're thinking Oh la-di-da I'm just going to keep going for a few more minutes. You're darn right that power falls off a cliff. The point, for me at least is to try to raise the cliff up a few watts and push the edge of it out a few more seconds.
12-19-14, 07:28 AM
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Most of the guys saying they can hold 600W for over a minute are very likely overestimating their capabilities. I am a pretty accomplished sprinter; there are few cyclists I encounter that I can't outsprint; and when I had a powermeter several years ago, I could hit 700W for about a minute. 600W for probably 1:15-1:30. That's the power for an end-of-race leadout and you are basically done after that. Now, that measurement for me is old and maybe I'm a bit better now (or quite possibly much worse), but any track cyclist who has done a kilo TT can attest there is a pretty hard anaerobic cutoff at about 1:00-1:15. Power falls off a cliff. There's a pretty chart floating around somewhere that shows basically all the non-aerobic energy systems going to zero right about at one minute. So, you don't do 600+W for "1-2 minutes". You do something like that for a minute or less, and then something quite a bit lower for two minutes.
There is a huge difference in peak power from 1 to 2 minutes. To hold 600w for 2 minutes, your 1 minute max would likely be 750-800 ??? At my weight, 714w for a minute is at the vey top of the Coggan power profile chart.
12-19-14, 08:56 AM
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Most folks that don't have power meters probably have no idea, so here is the basic formula to help:
(2x + y) / (1/z) = number of seconds you can hold 600 watts
x = number of minutes it takes you to eat 600 peanuts (shelled but salted)
y = your average speed or the number of women you have made out with (surprisingly, either will work)
z = how much you care on a scale of 1-10
(2x + y) / (1/z) = number of seconds you can hold 600 watts
x = number of minutes it takes you to eat 600 peanuts (shelled but salted)
y = your average speed or the number of women you have made out with (surprisingly, either will work)
z = how much you care on a scale of 1-10
12-19-14, 09:22 AM
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Maybe 20 seconds or so. Sadly, my power completely dies off in about a minute on any hard effort, and I hit a drop-off at 20-30 seconds of maximum effort. Must be an age thing 
12-19-14, 09:53 AM
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Most folks that don't have power meters probably have no idea, so here is the basic formula to help:
(2x + y) / (1/z) = number of seconds you can hold 600 watts
x = number of minutes it takes you to eat 600 peanuts (shelled but salted)
y = your average speed or the number of women you have made out with (surprisingly, either will work)
z = how much you care on a scale of 1-10
(2x + y) / (1/z) = number of seconds you can hold 600 watts
x = number of minutes it takes you to eat 600 peanuts (shelled but salted)
y = your average speed or the number of women you have made out with (surprisingly, either will work)
z = how much you care on a scale of 1-10
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12-19-14, 11:18 AM
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according to trainerroad. 10 seconds.
Career - TrainerRoad
that's based on virtual power. is it accurate? I dunno.
All I care is that I've got a variable controlled environment for my training/winter riding.
Eventually I'm sure I'll get a power meter... right after some aero wheels, which will come after a better groupset... which comes after upgrade my contact points (which i've finally started doing).
Career - TrainerRoad
that's based on virtual power. is it accurate? I dunno.
All I care is that I've got a variable controlled environment for my training/winter riding.
Eventually I'm sure I'll get a power meter... right after some aero wheels, which will come after a better groupset... which comes after upgrade my contact points (which i've finally started doing).
12-19-14, 11:33 AM
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Depends... is there a velociraptor chasing me? If not.. doubt it at all
12-19-14, 11:40 AM
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at work so dont have access to that data. However i checked it quickly and you are right. 2 min power was 500 at my top. I estimate 450-480 now. My 1min was close to 700 and that was a big deal for me.
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12-19-14, 12:59 PM
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This is spot on. And when you're doing 60" intervals you can't believe how long and excruciatingly painful 60 seconds can be. It's never the case where you're thinking Oh la-di-da I'm just going to keep going for a few more minutes. You're darn right that power falls off a cliff. The point, for me at least is to try to raise the cliff up a few watts and push the edge of it out a few more seconds.
600W? I'd probably be able to hold that for 75-90 seconds. At least when I'm at peak racing form - I'm nowhere near that now. At my best, I was routinely doing 3 2-min anaerobic capacity intervals on a trainer at 400W w/ 1-min rest intervals, 3 1-min at 500W, then 3 30-sec at 600W with 5-min rest intervals between each set of 3. I thought the 1-min at 500W was by far the toughest - 400W for "only" 2 minutes isn't that bad, and 600W is tough but it's only 30 sec. And I found doing those intervals on the trainer was a lot harder, along with much more consistent.
But I'm a 200-lb sprinter. Then I had a 175-lb friend post a ride to Strava where he put out a measured-by-a-powermeter 900W for an entire minute when he as doing hill repeats - yeah, he got KOM up that 1-min-or-so climb. Unfair, especially given how little he'd train compared to what I'd do.
12-19-14, 01:01 PM
#64
Uber Goober
Most folks that don't have power meters probably have no idea, so here is the basic formula to help:
(2x + y) / (1/z) = number of seconds you can hold 600 watts
x = number of minutes it takes you to eat 600 peanuts (shelled but salted)
y = your average speed or the number of women you have made out with (surprisingly, either will work)
z = how much you care on a scale of 1-10
(2x + y) / (1/z) = number of seconds you can hold 600 watts
x = number of minutes it takes you to eat 600 peanuts (shelled but salted)
y = your average speed or the number of women you have made out with (surprisingly, either will work)
z = how much you care on a scale of 1-10
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"be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."
12-19-14, 02:27 PM
#65
Senior Member
My best is 587w for a minute so I couldn't do it for even 60s.
My best also came when I did two massive accelerations trying to stay in contention for a race. I failed, blowing up with 2 turns to go, but I was totally redlined.
In a real pressure race I can hold 1100w for 18-19 seconds in the sprint. Let's change some numbers to make calculations easy. Say I could hold 1200w for 20 seconds. That means that if I stopped pedaling at the end of the 20 seconds (or crashed or something), I'd still average 400w for a minute - 1200w for 20 seconds is 400w for 60s.
If I could do 1200w for 30s then it'd be a 600w minute.
During the hour record they interviewed one of the people looking after his numbers. The person admitted that he was over 400w for the first 30 minutes and he was also more aero than during his tests so he was going faster both due to much more power (370w target, at least published) as well as aero.
If I try to sustain an effort, meaning not sprinting, I have a really hard time holding 400w for a minute.
From here:
Here are the power values, per Allen Lim of Floyd Landis on the day:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)
·Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)
·Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)
·Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)
· Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)
At Landis' stated weight of 68 kilos that gives the following power to weight ratios:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts 5.81W/kg
Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts 5.46W/kg
Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts 5.76W/kg
Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts 5.5W/kg
Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts 5.47W/kg
I didn't check but I think that's basically what's been said publicly about his numbers. They were very high but not as crazy as some of the other numbers I've seen, like 440w or such for a climb.
Only on a hill.
On a flat road there is much less of a difference between two w/kg value riders. Yes, kg makes a difference in acceleration, but w/kg is not as critical.
For climbing w/kg is the absolute king. I read an article where the author talks about how the steeper the climb the less tactics counts, relating to ProTour races like the Giro or Vuelta. It just comes down to w/kg and tactics and teamwork don't play an effect. On the slightly less steep, where there's still some wind effect, there's a bit more of the tactics and such.
For flat roads it's w/CdA, or watts for a given amount of aero drag. You basically forget about weight, at least for a steady state effort, because once you get going you don't need to accelerate or otherwise lift the weight - the bearings hold your weight up. It's more about total power vs aero drag.
Obviously if one rider is much taller than the other then size comes into play. I present as much wind as a rider who might be 5'4" (I would ride a size S Giant) but I'm typically overweight so I'm heavy (170-180 lbs is sort of normal for me now and I'm 5'7").
Because of the combination of my weight and lower threshold power my w/kg is absolutely horrible for a Cat 3. With a 200-220w FTP it was 2.8 w/kg or so during the summer. However, because I'm somewhat small on the bike, plus I know how to draft well, and I have a reasonable top end (1200w peak and 15+ seconds of sustained 1100w in a good race) I'm reasonably competitive in flatter Cat 3 races. In fact, last year, I won maybe 6 field sprints (none of them for an actual win), even though I wasn't training much at all.
There's one sprint where it actually counted because the state bronze medal was on the line. The guy in green, Ian, hit 1600w peak. I hit 1230w peak and couldn't sustain 1000w for even 10 seconds, yet I won the sprint, accelerating to and holding 37 mph in a cross-headwind.
Since I've had a power meter my weight has fluctuated about 50 lbs (149 - 205 lbs). It's a LOT of weight. When I dropped 40 lbs from one March to another (2009-2010) my riding improved dramatically. I've since gained back 20+ pounds and my riding suffered, even on the flats, because of the nature of the events I do (requires a lot of accelerations so penalizes excess weight).
My best also came when I did two massive accelerations trying to stay in contention for a race. I failed, blowing up with 2 turns to go, but I was totally redlined.
In a real pressure race I can hold 1100w for 18-19 seconds in the sprint. Let's change some numbers to make calculations easy. Say I could hold 1200w for 20 seconds. That means that if I stopped pedaling at the end of the 20 seconds (or crashed or something), I'd still average 400w for a minute - 1200w for 20 seconds is 400w for 60s.
If I could do 1200w for 30s then it'd be a 600w minute.
400w for an hour is impressive even for a pro. Trek calculated that Jens would average about 370 for the hour record. Hour Record Twitter Q&A | Trek Factory Racing I don't know if they ever published his actuals.
If I try to sustain an effort, meaning not sprinting, I have a really hard time holding 400w for a minute.
If I remember correctly, in the '06 edition of the Tour, (and before he came clean) Floyd said he didn't really attack (stage 17 I believe it was). He merely rode at a wattage that he knew he could hold for x amount of time and no one went with him. I believe he said he kept an eye on his power meter and rode at 400w
Here are the power values, per Allen Lim of Floyd Landis on the day:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)
·Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)
·Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)
·Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)
· Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)
At Landis' stated weight of 68 kilos that gives the following power to weight ratios:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts 5.81W/kg
Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts 5.46W/kg
Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts 5.76W/kg
Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts 5.5W/kg
Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts 5.47W/kg
I didn't check but I think that's basically what's been said publicly about his numbers. They were very high but not as crazy as some of the other numbers I've seen, like 440w or such for a climb.
On a flat road there is much less of a difference between two w/kg value riders. Yes, kg makes a difference in acceleration, but w/kg is not as critical.
For climbing w/kg is the absolute king. I read an article where the author talks about how the steeper the climb the less tactics counts, relating to ProTour races like the Giro or Vuelta. It just comes down to w/kg and tactics and teamwork don't play an effect. On the slightly less steep, where there's still some wind effect, there's a bit more of the tactics and such.
For flat roads it's w/CdA, or watts for a given amount of aero drag. You basically forget about weight, at least for a steady state effort, because once you get going you don't need to accelerate or otherwise lift the weight - the bearings hold your weight up. It's more about total power vs aero drag.
Obviously if one rider is much taller than the other then size comes into play. I present as much wind as a rider who might be 5'4" (I would ride a size S Giant) but I'm typically overweight so I'm heavy (170-180 lbs is sort of normal for me now and I'm 5'7").
Because of the combination of my weight and lower threshold power my w/kg is absolutely horrible for a Cat 3. With a 200-220w FTP it was 2.8 w/kg or so during the summer. However, because I'm somewhat small on the bike, plus I know how to draft well, and I have a reasonable top end (1200w peak and 15+ seconds of sustained 1100w in a good race) I'm reasonably competitive in flatter Cat 3 races. In fact, last year, I won maybe 6 field sprints (none of them for an actual win), even though I wasn't training much at all.
There's one sprint where it actually counted because the state bronze medal was on the line. The guy in green, Ian, hit 1600w peak. I hit 1230w peak and couldn't sustain 1000w for even 10 seconds, yet I won the sprint, accelerating to and holding 37 mph in a cross-headwind.
Since I've had a power meter my weight has fluctuated about 50 lbs (149 - 205 lbs). It's a LOT of weight. When I dropped 40 lbs from one March to another (2009-2010) my riding improved dramatically. I've since gained back 20+ pounds and my riding suffered, even on the flats, because of the nature of the events I do (requires a lot of accelerations so penalizes excess weight).
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12-19-14, 02:55 PM
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12-19-14, 04:22 PM
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I have to admit that I get one heck of a kick out of the watts Strava says I am putting out. Typical ride will be well below 200W and I FEEL like I am about to die in some places without ever hitting 4. I don't know how much having only one power leg affects those numbers either...
12-19-14, 04:35 PM
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My best is 587w for a minute so I couldn't do it for even 60s.
My best also came when I did two massive accelerations trying to stay in contention for a race. I failed, blowing up with 2 turns to go, but I was totally redlined.
In a real pressure race I can hold 1100w for 18-19 seconds in the sprint. Let's change some numbers to make calculations easy. Say I could hold 1200w for 20 seconds. That means that if I stopped pedaling at the end of the 20 seconds (or crashed or something), I'd still average 400w for a minute - 1200w for 20 seconds is 400w for 60s.
If I could do 1200w for 30s then it'd be a 600w minute.
During the hour record they interviewed one of the people looking after his numbers. The person admitted that he was over 400w for the first 30 minutes and he was also more aero than during his tests so he was going faster both due to much more power (370w target, at least published) as well as aero.
If I try to sustain an effort, meaning not sprinting, I have a really hard time holding 400w for a minute.
From here:
Here are the power values, per Allen Lim of Floyd Landis on the day:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)
·Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)
·Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)
·Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)
· Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)
At Landis' stated weight of 68 kilos that gives the following power to weight ratios:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts 5.81W/kg
Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts 5.46W/kg
Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts 5.76W/kg
Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts 5.5W/kg
Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts 5.47W/kg
I didn't check but I think that's basically what's been said publicly about his numbers. They were very high but not as crazy as some of the other numbers I've seen, like 440w or such for a climb.
Only on a hill.
On a flat road there is much less of a difference between two w/kg value riders. Yes, kg makes a difference in acceleration, but w/kg is not as critical.
For climbing w/kg is the absolute king. I read an article where the author talks about how the steeper the climb the less tactics counts, relating to ProTour races like the Giro or Vuelta. It just comes down to w/kg and tactics and teamwork don't play an effect. On the slightly less steep, where there's still some wind effect, there's a bit more of the tactics and such.
For flat roads it's w/CdA, or watts for a given amount of aero drag. You basically forget about weight, at least for a steady state effort, because once you get going you don't need to accelerate or otherwise lift the weight - the bearings hold your weight up. It's more about total power vs aero drag.
Obviously if one rider is much taller than the other then size comes into play. I present as much wind as a rider who might be 5'4" (I would ride a size S Giant) but I'm typically overweight so I'm heavy (170-180 lbs is sort of normal for me now and I'm 5'7").
Because of the combination of my weight and lower threshold power my w/kg is absolutely horrible for a Cat 3. With a 200-220w FTP it was 2.8 w/kg or so during the summer. However, because I'm somewhat small on the bike, plus I know how to draft well, and I have a reasonable top end (1200w peak and 15+ seconds of sustained 1100w in a good race) I'm reasonably competitive in flatter Cat 3 races. In fact, last year, I won maybe 6 field sprints (none of them for an actual win), even though I wasn't training much at all.
There's one sprint where it actually counted because the state bronze medal was on the line. The guy in green, Ian, hit 1600w peak. I hit 1230w peak and couldn't sustain 1000w for even 10 seconds, yet I won the sprint, accelerating to and holding 37 mph in a cross-headwind.
Since I've had a power meter my weight has fluctuated about 50 lbs (149 - 205 lbs). It's a LOT of weight. When I dropped 40 lbs from one March to another (2009-2010) my riding improved dramatically. I've since gained back 20+ pounds and my riding suffered, even on the flats, because of the nature of the events I do (requires a lot of accelerations so penalizes excess weight).
My best also came when I did two massive accelerations trying to stay in contention for a race. I failed, blowing up with 2 turns to go, but I was totally redlined.
In a real pressure race I can hold 1100w for 18-19 seconds in the sprint. Let's change some numbers to make calculations easy. Say I could hold 1200w for 20 seconds. That means that if I stopped pedaling at the end of the 20 seconds (or crashed or something), I'd still average 400w for a minute - 1200w for 20 seconds is 400w for 60s.
If I could do 1200w for 30s then it'd be a 600w minute.
During the hour record they interviewed one of the people looking after his numbers. The person admitted that he was over 400w for the first 30 minutes and he was also more aero than during his tests so he was going faster both due to much more power (370w target, at least published) as well as aero.
If I try to sustain an effort, meaning not sprinting, I have a really hard time holding 400w for a minute.
From here:
Here are the power values, per Allen Lim of Floyd Landis on the day:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)
·Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)
·Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)
·Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)
· Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)
At Landis' stated weight of 68 kilos that gives the following power to weight ratios:
Col des Saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts 5.81W/kg
Col des Aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts 5.46W/kg
Col de la Colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts 5.76W/kg
Cote de Chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts 5.5W/kg
Col de Joux Plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts 5.47W/kg
I didn't check but I think that's basically what's been said publicly about his numbers. They were very high but not as crazy as some of the other numbers I've seen, like 440w or such for a climb.
Only on a hill.
On a flat road there is much less of a difference between two w/kg value riders. Yes, kg makes a difference in acceleration, but w/kg is not as critical.
For climbing w/kg is the absolute king. I read an article where the author talks about how the steeper the climb the less tactics counts, relating to ProTour races like the Giro or Vuelta. It just comes down to w/kg and tactics and teamwork don't play an effect. On the slightly less steep, where there's still some wind effect, there's a bit more of the tactics and such.
For flat roads it's w/CdA, or watts for a given amount of aero drag. You basically forget about weight, at least for a steady state effort, because once you get going you don't need to accelerate or otherwise lift the weight - the bearings hold your weight up. It's more about total power vs aero drag.
Obviously if one rider is much taller than the other then size comes into play. I present as much wind as a rider who might be 5'4" (I would ride a size S Giant) but I'm typically overweight so I'm heavy (170-180 lbs is sort of normal for me now and I'm 5'7").
Because of the combination of my weight and lower threshold power my w/kg is absolutely horrible for a Cat 3. With a 200-220w FTP it was 2.8 w/kg or so during the summer. However, because I'm somewhat small on the bike, plus I know how to draft well, and I have a reasonable top end (1200w peak and 15+ seconds of sustained 1100w in a good race) I'm reasonably competitive in flatter Cat 3 races. In fact, last year, I won maybe 6 field sprints (none of them for an actual win), even though I wasn't training much at all.
There's one sprint where it actually counted because the state bronze medal was on the line. The guy in green, Ian, hit 1600w peak. I hit 1230w peak and couldn't sustain 1000w for even 10 seconds, yet I won the sprint, accelerating to and holding 37 mph in a cross-headwind.
Since I've had a power meter my weight has fluctuated about 50 lbs (149 - 205 lbs). It's a LOT of weight. When I dropped 40 lbs from one March to another (2009-2010) my riding improved dramatically. I've since gained back 20+ pounds and my riding suffered, even on the flats, because of the nature of the events I do (requires a lot of accelerations so penalizes excess weight).
12-19-14, 04:53 PM
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I've never really tried to see how long I can hold 600w. But, from my ride history, it looks to be about 75-seconds.
I'll have to keep an eye out for you on the road or trail and draft whenever possible.
I understand the comparison of elite level cyclists as most are in the same general weight range. For the rest of us, we are all over the board, so saying one guy struggles at 150 and another at 300 watts does not mean much. Isn't it all about about watts/KG? Example I am 6'6, 225 lbs and my FTP is 310 Watts, meaning I can sustain 310 watts for 1 hour. I am bigger and stronger so can put down more watts then the average novice, but my weight is the great equalizer.
12-19-14, 04:59 PM
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This is spot on. And when you're doing 60" intervals you can't believe how long and excruciatingly painful 60 seconds can be. It's never the case where you're thinking Oh la-di-da I'm just going to keep going for a few more minutes. You're darn right that power falls off a cliff. The point, for me at least is to try to raise the cliff up a few watts and push the edge of it out a few more seconds.